Readying an action for when Time Stop ends

[roguerouge]

Completely acceptable use of the spell. Remember that, at that level, quickened spells are de rigeur, so he's really trading the opportunity to do two spells in time stop for one spell outside it.

 

[Sagiro]

It doesn't work and here is why: a readied action is still a standard action, its just triggered when a specified occurence happens. It still takes standard action amount of time to do, you're simply waiting to take that action.

Once Time Stop is cast, he can't then take another standard action. You get one a round, and there are no exceptions.

What it sounds like is that the player assumes he can cast the spell and somehow delay it going off until the Time Stop is over, which simply isn't the case. He says the words, makes the motions, and the spell goes off, or in the case of casting a spell that effects others during Time Stop, it doesn't because the spell says you can't.

Bottom line, hes trying to take two standard actions in a round, which is against the rules.

That was my initial objection, almost exactly. It holds up if you think that Time Stop's effect is to give you 2-5 "mini-rounds" in which to do stuff, but all of which happens on your current turn.

But, on the other side, you could model Time Stop this way: "For the next 2-5 rounds, only you get to act." If you think of it that way, the Readying trick is okay.

By the spell as written, it's not entirely clear which it is, and given how they clearly don't want you affecting other creatures by way of the spell, I would be inclined to say it doesn't work.

But, having read some of the replies here, and thinking about the opportunity cost of casting Time Stop in the first place, and the fact that there's risk (wasted actions if you Ready too soon, or no Readied action if you wait too long), I think I'll keep allowing it.

For the bad guys, too.

For the record, in that battle, the wizard did in fact get screwed by the die roll (I rolled a "1" on the hidden d4), and he didn't get to the Readied action he was planning -- Mordenkainen's Disjunction dropped on a cluster of heavily-buffed bad guys!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Did said bad guys have gear (also known as "treasure")? If so, maybe it's best he never got off the Disjunction. The player is aware of what that spell can do, right?

And aside from losing massive amounts of loot, if any NPC had even a crappy little artifact, the player's wizard could've been royally boned.

Mage’s Disjunction :: d20srd.org

" Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device. "

 

[akbearfoot]

I like mudmanns reasoning.

Once your spell ends, you are back in the regular initiative order...its your turn and you have spent a standard action sofar....would you like to take your move action or are you finished?


An interesting side effect of allowing your readied time stop action is your initiative would become higher....since your readied action would would reset your initiative to just before the triggering event....thats another reason to not allow it, its silly.


White raven tactics is one of the most broken things in the entire Bo9S book as written...I think they simply forgot to include the part where it only works on OTHER allies. It's not nearly as powerful that way, and its how I voluntarily nerfed it for a Warblade I am playing currently.

 

[Piratecat]

Did said bad guys have gear (also known as "treasure")? If so, maybe it's best he never got off the Disjunction. The player is aware of what that spell can do, right?

And aside from losing massive amounts of loot, if any NPC had even a crappy little artifact, the player's wizard could've been royally boned.

Oh, we knew. Suffice to say that winning this fight (against buffed bad guys teleporting in when we weren't ready for them) was far, far more important than saving loot. And this is coming from the greediest, most acquisitive member of the party.

I probably wouldn't be wrong to say that this was the most dangerous fight we've had in a 14 year long campaign. The fact that we boofed the disjunction and still managed to win is totally astonishing to me.

Yay, us! It was a great fight.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

White raven tactics is one of the most broken things in the entire Bo9S book as written...I think they simply forgot to include the part where it only works on OTHER allies. It's not nearly as powerful that way, and its how I voluntarily nerfed it for a Warblade I am playing currently.

No, no. You see, every group I've ever played in or been DM for has ruled it just as you do. It's still crazy. Mind you, I'm not complaining. I like WRT. I was just using it as a comparison to the trick the OP was asking about, to say it doesn't seem so bad considering you can do WRT 12 levels earlier.

[sblock]I was once in aparty where myself and two others were Warblades, all about level 6-8. All with WRT readied AND a novice crown of the WR (with you-know-what as the chosen maneuver). First combat, we all rolled high initiative (it helps that Imp. Init is a bonus feat ) and proceeded to utterly rape the entire opposition before they could move! It went something like...

Me: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 2!
W2: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 3!
W3: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 1 (me)!
Me: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 2!
W2: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 3!
W3: [round's action] "...ok, bad guys. You can go now."

And yes, we managed to use move + standard action strike maneuver to always chain ourselves within 10 ft of another Warblade in order to keep the chain alive. The DM was...upset.

EDIT: I forget how many got good initiative, but as long as one Warblade rolls a high number, it doesn't matter what the others roll. In any case, it was after this I started to consider limiting the usage to once per ally per encounter, and extending the range in return.[/sblock]

 

[Jack Simth]

No, no. You see, every group I've ever played in or been DM for has ruled it just as you do. It's still crazy. Mind you, I'm not complaining. I like WRT. I was just using it as a comparison to the trick the OP was asking about, to say it doesn't seem so bad considering you can do WRT 12 levels earlier.

[sblock]I was once in aparty where myself and two others were Warblades, all about level 6-8. All with WRT readied AND a novice crown of the WR (with you-know-what as the chosen maneuver). First combat, we all rolled high initiative (it helps that Imp. Init is a bonus feat ) and proceeded to utterly rape the entire opposition before they could move! It went something like...

Me: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 2!
W2: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 3!
W3: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 1 (me)!
Me: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 2!
W2: [round's action] + WRT Warblade 3!
W3: [round's action] "...ok, bad guys. You can go now."

And yes, we managed to use move + standard action strike maneuver to always chain ourselves within 10 ft of another Warblade in order to keep the chain alive. The DM was...upset.[/sblock]

What, your DM never demonstrated why that's a bad idea with a small group of High Dex characters with WRT and Improved Initiative to TPK you? AKA, turned the tactics around on you with, say, Wizards.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

What, your DM never demonstrated why that's a bad idea with a small group of High Dex characters with WRT and Improved Initiative to TPK you? AKA, turned the tactics around on you with, say, Wizards.

Well, that particular DM wasn't very good at... rules. She could do roleplaying pretty well and was creative, but didn't particularly like the complexities of the D&D rules set.

I added an edit, I'm considering limiting WRT to one use per ally per combat if it ever starts getting abused in my games. Still, it's pretty scary for a level 3 maneuver. And while I'm a big proponent of "what's good for the players is good for the DM," some arms races just aren't worth having. Same reason I just plain banned Mord's Disjunction, instead of the standard "cold war standoff" most groups seemed to approach it with.

 

[Shin Okada]

IMHO, Bo9S is full of not-so-well-tested experimental rules and using that book without some modifications may easily break game balance. While interesting, it is one of the most broken official supplement books from the beginning. So, no good to be used for comparison here.

I vote for Muddman's interpretation. It seems that disallowing direct attacks is the very intent of the 3.5e update for the said spell.

 

[Jack Simth]

Well, that particular DM wasn't very good at... rules. She could do roleplaying pretty well and was creative, but didn't particularly like the complexities of the D&D rules set.

I added an edit, I'm considering limiting WRT to one use per ally per combat if it ever starts getting abused in my games. Still, it's pretty scary for a level 3 maneuver. And while I'm a big proponent of "what's good for the players is good for the DM," some arms races just aren't worth having. Same reason I just plain banned Mord's Disjunction, instead of the standard "cold war standoff" most groups seemed to approach it with.

Oh, arms races are bad in games. However, when the players are dismantling encounters with little-to-no risk to themselves, and simply walking over everything the DM throws at them, it's merely "keeping up" rather than "racing ahead".

IMHO, Bo9S is full of not-so-well-tested experimental rules and using that book without some modifications may easily break game balance. While interesting, it is one of the most broken official supplement books from the beginning. So, no good to be used for comparison here.

It's actually somewhat difficult to find things in the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords that are really stronger than the Core Druid with natural spell; likewise, the Tome of Battle is less broken than Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) played as written for a savvy cleric. Granted, those aren't the best comparison in the world (the Druid is fairly overpowered in 3.5, if played well), but the Tome of Battle mostly just lets high-level melee characters pick up something comparable to the power of high-level casters, without having to be a one-trick pony (like an Ubercharger usually is). There are some broken things in there (such as White Raven Tactics), but for the most part, it's an equalization attempt for melee and casters.