Readying vs. Stilled, Silenced Spell

[KarinsDad]

I have to disagree with the majority here.

First off, blow off T&B. It is not core rules.

Secondly, you can only perform a readied action if you detect that the condition that you set occurs.

So, if the fighter can detect that the spell caster is casting, then yes, he gets his Readied Action. If not, he does not.

So, the question comes down to whether the concentration for a stilled silent spell is observable.

I would typically think that it is not.

The reason is that when you are in combat, everything requires concentration. You pay attention to things, regardless of whether you are a fighter, a wizard, a rogue, or whatever.

How does the fighter detect the difference between normal combat concentration on the combat at hand and the "special concentration" of casting a spell? Does the Wizard gaze off into the distance? Does it look like his is doing mathematical equations?

I really do not think that you can say that the "Wizard's brow furrows" or some such thing.

Plus, if you are readying an action for when someone casts a spell, aren't you really looking for him to pull out components, start making gestures, start verbalizing?

When he doesn't do this, how do you know that he is not delaying?

How can you tell the difference?

I have to disagree with you guys. There is no such think as detecting a Wizard concentrating. It's not like he is screwing up his face or tensing his body like when taking a crap. There has to be some observable spell action.

Best case, I would require either a Spot or a Sense Motive roll by the Fighter to determine that "he must be casting by now". But, if you do this, you should probably also give him one when a spell caster delays as well to accidentally attack him too early.

 

[Petrosian]

Secondly, you can only perform a readied action if you detect that the condition that you set occurs.

Everyone agrees. There is just no rule establishing that you CANNOT detect spell casting and the default definitely seems to be you can. Certainly, the default in 3e is you see things in combat.

So, if the fighter can detect that the spell caster is casting, then yes, he gets his Readied Action. If not, he does not.

Everyone agrees. There is just no rule establishing that you CANNOT detect spell casting and the default definitely seems to be you can.

So, the question comes down to whether the concentration for a stilled silent spell is observable.

Have to assume you also mean "no material" spell too.

I would typically think that it is not.

The reason is that when you are in combat, everything requires concentration. You pay attention to things, regardless of whether you are a fighter, a wizard, a rogue, or whatever.

But some things require MORE concentration than is typically done in combat. Spellcasting requires so much concentration, it causes you to lower your guard. This is WITHOUT FAIL detectable by anyone within melee range of you, period. Its called "you get the choice of an AoO." The AoO is not automatic, the fighter gets to choose it. Which means there is something he sees which lets him notice "ahah, something is up."

How do i know that spellcasting require more co0ncentration? If the mage does not want to lower his guard, even with non-verbal, non-somantic, non-anything... he has to make a die roll for casting on the defensive. If he does not get "into the spell" enough to mean he lowers his guard, he has a chance of failing the spell.


Now, if the mage is lowering his guard by sheathing a weapon, its obvious WHY he lowered his guard. If he lowered his guard by drinking a potion, its obvious why the choice is there for the fighter. Look at the other AoOs, they all have OBVIOUS conditions the fighter can see and recognize.

So if the skinny guy in no armor or the holy guy with symbol lowers his guard and is not doing on of these obvious things, is the fighter going to stop and say "guard's down. he could just be wondering if he left the iron on back at his lair?" NO. he is going to reach the only reasonable conclusion... that the guy is doing about the only thing that LOWERS guard that could be disguised... casting a spell..whack!

Now, the ONLY question is, BEYOND the melee range, which can reach rather far, how obvious is the lowering of the guard.

How does the fighter detect the difference between normal combat concentration on the combat at hand and the "special concentration" of casting a spell? Does the Wizard gaze off into the distance? Does it look like his is doing mathematical equations?

The mage lowers his guard with NOTHING ELSE action-wise to account for it. He is not sheathing a sword, lifting a heavy chest, drinking a potion or firing a missile weapon yet he still lowers his guard. Sure he could conclude the wizard is just bored and wants to make this more challenging a combat, or he could think REASONABLY and think "its a spell."

Remember an AOO is a reaction to a dropping of the guard, an opening not normally there and is a choice, not just "since he had less defense you got one of your normally parried shots through" thing.

I really do not think that you can say that the "Wizard's brow furrows" or some such thing.

You can say "His guard is lowered with no obvious reason for it." and let the conclusions lead where they may. Thems the rules even.

Plus, if you are readying an action for when someone casts a spell, aren't you really looking for him to pull out components, start making gestures, start verbalizing?

Sure, if you do not undersand or know about silent spell, still spell, spell-like-abilities, etc etc etc. If you presume your fighters to be ignorant of all these things, do your wizards know that pointy shiny sword thingy can hurt them?

When he doesn't do this, how do you know that he is not delaying?

OK, try KNOW THE RULES lesson 117...

When he delays he keeps his guard up.
When he casts silent still no-material spells, he lowers his guard.

How can you tell the difference?

OK, try KNOW THE RULES lesson 117...

When he delays he keeps his guard up.
When he casts silent still no-material spells, he lowers his guard.

I have to disagree with you guys. There is no such think as detecting a Wizard concentrating. It's not like he is screwing up his face or tensing his body like when taking a crap. There has to be some observable spell action.

So, exactly how many combat actions lower your guard with no visible reason why? Spellcasting with SSE or spell like abilities. This is not a tough call to make for a fighter.

its barely a difficult choice to make for a turnip.

Best case, I would require either a Spot or a Sense Motive roll by the Fighter to determine that "he must be casting by now". But, if you do this, you should probably also give him one when a spell caster delays as well to accidentally attack him too early.

Again the only open issue is what about spotting it beyond melee range. it clearly IS spotted within melee range.

By the books, there is nothing saying it should become impossible beyond sword point range , but then, its not explicit.
*****
he is what i do. my fill in the gap. my house rules if you will, although i see this as simply using the existing skill rules to cover an unspecified situation, and not really a house rule.

*****
The "event" you are spotting is the dropping of guard for no obvious non-spellcasting cause. This assumes no verbal, somantic or material components. this applies to spell-like abilities as well.

Within melee range, spotting the lowering of the guard is automatic (exception see CoD below)

A normal spot check, DC10 beyond melee range, to spot the caster's "lowering of guard" and react accordingly i given. (See CoD exception below.)

CoD Exception: IF the caster decides to CAST ON DEFENSIVE, which means he does not lower his guard, then i use his CAST ON DEFENSIVE result as the spot DC. So a mage can get better at casting spells without lowering his guard by buying the SKILL and this obviously helps cover his "casting."

Normal spot roll adjustments for lighting, distance etc apply
****

Note that this may well mean the "readied" action is spent even if the CoD roll fails.

Wizard decides to CoD a silent still magic missile... fighter readied in the corner... wizard makes his conc roll and rolls a 2 for a net 11, meaning the spell will not succeed. Fighter rolls spot and gets a 15, so he sees the wizard lowering his guard as he struggles with the spell, and fires trying to interrupt the spell, which will fail on its own, but the fighter does not know that and may well believe when the spell fizzles it was due to his arrow.
***

So could a mage fake a dropping of guard, sure, bluff check as standard action opposed by spots, if it succeeds the enemy believes the mage is casting. The only time i would think this was reasonable would be if you have very few spells remaining and are hasted and want to draw his ready vs a fake so you can gt the spell off with your partial. maybe you only have one fireball left and the enemies only have one "mage-whacker."

 

[Zenon]

From the SRD:

Still Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: A still spell can be cast with no somatic components. Spells without somatic components are not affected. A still spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

Silent Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: A silent spell can be cast with no verbal components. Spells without verbal components are not affected. A silent spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Special: Bard spells cannot be enhanced by this metamagic feat.

From the SRD under Magic Overview:

Concentration

To cast a spell, the character must concentrate. If something interrupts the character's concentration while the character is casting, the character must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell the character is trying to cast, the higher the DC is. (The DC depends partly on the spell level because more powerful spells require more mental effort.) If the character fails the check, the character loses the spell just as if the character had cast it to no effect.

Casting Defensively:
If the character wants to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, the character needs to dodge and weave. The character must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell the character is casting) to succeed. The character loses the spell if the character fails.

In researching this in the SRD (since I don't have a PHB handy), it would appear that neither of the feats (Silent and Still Spell) remove the AoO for casting. Since the AoO is not removed, it would still be obvious to an opponent in melee that there is casting going on, even without the motions of spellcasting, or the verbal components. I suspect (but cannot verify at the moment )that the Eschew Component feat does not list a removal of AoO either.

In light of these facts (and not opinions) I would judge (and you may do it differently if you feel like) that casting while using these metamagic feats while in melee still provokes an AoO unless the spell is Cast Defensively.

(edit - added clarification below)

Let me be clear that this is only for a melee situation! If the caster was in a crowd casting a Stilled, Silent Eschewed Material spell, I doubt anyone who isn't watching him like a hawk would notice him casting (unless it's in the King's throne room with his Royal Guard watching for anything suspicious!). He also has less on his mind (like no-one trying to cram 3 feet of steel though his guts) than in melee, and does have someone watching his every move, just waiting for the opening to stick him.

 

[KarinsDad]

Originally posted by Petrosian
OK, try KNOW THE RULES lesson 117...

When he delays he keeps his guard up.
When he casts silent still no-material spells, he lowers his guard.

Well, with the exception of the snide remarks, a well thought out response Petrosian.

So, the "lowers his guard" basically means that the Wizard stops attempting to avoid blows? He stops ducking and weaving.

So, knowing that the Fighter has readied an action since the Fighter is solely focusing (as per the DMG paragraphs on readying an action) on the Wizard (as you say, things are observable in
combat), the Wizard could "lower his guard", allow the Fighter the readied attack, "lower his guard again", take an AoO from the Fighter, and then cast his spell.

Or, he could move back 5 feet in a lot of circumstances and the Fighter could only attack if he has a reach weapon or has readied a partial charge.

But, basically, if the Fighter knows that the Wizard is concentrating on a spell, the Wizard knows that the Fighter is readying an action and can take steps to attempt to counter it.

Correct?

 

[EOL]

Or, he could move back 5 feet in a lot of circumstances and the Fighter could only attack if he has a reach weapon or has readied a partial charge.

My understanding is that since you can take a 5 ft. step as part of a partial that you could ready an action to take a 5 ft. step and attack, which is good because in order for something to be considered a charge you have to move at least 10 ft.

Okay I'm being somewhat picky, but I thought I'd mention it.

 

[Uller]

On a side note...those of you who think that you can detect a Stilled&Silenced spell(and I 90% agree with you)...what about when a psion manifests a power? That is purely a mental task that requires concentration and provokes an AoO(I think). Can you ready against that?

What about spell-like abilities...they don't require components and fall under all the restrictions of spells with concentration and AoOs...can they be readied against?

 

[Zenon]

Well, with the exception of the snide remarks, a well thought out response Petrosian.

So, the "lowers his guard" basically means that the Wizard stops attempting to avoid blows? He stops ducking and weaving.

So, knowing that the Fighter has readied an action since the Fighter is solely focusing (as per the DMG paragraphs on readying an action) on the Wizard (as you say, things are observable in
combat), the Wizard could "lower his guard", allow the Fighter the readied attack, "lower his guard again", take an AoO from the Fighter, and then cast his spell.

Or, he could move back 5 feet in a lot of circumstances and the Fighter could only attack if he has a reach weapon or has readied a partial charge.

But, basically, if the Fighter knows that the Wizard is concentrating on a spell, the Wizard knows that the Fighter is readying an action and can take steps to attempt to counter it.

Correct?

That's the way we do it (correct or not ). If I have an NPC with a ready action to chop at the wizard if he casts, I'll just announce "The fighter readies an action". On the flip side, when wizards (sorcerers and cleric too) cast, I just announce "They're casting" and might detail how long (action or full round), but don't give out anything more unless a Spellcraft check is made.

 

[Zenon]

My understanding is that since you can take a 5 ft. step as part of a partial that you could ready an action to take a 5 ft. step and attack, which is good because in order for something to be considered a charge you have to move at least 10 ft.

Okay I'm being somewhat picky, but I thought I'd mention it.

He could only take a 5' step as part of the Ready action if he has not moved in his round. IIRC, you cannot combine a 5' step and other physical movement.

Just me being picky

 

[Zenon]

On a side note...those of you who think that you can detect a Stilled&Silenced spell(and I 90% agree with you)...what about when a psion manifests a power? That is purely a mental task that requires concentration and provokes an AoO(I think). Can you ready against that?

What about spell-like abilities...they don't require components and fall under all the restrictions of spells with concentration and AoOs...can they be readied against?

In the beginning of the Monster Manual it detail out the answer to your spell-like abilities question regarding if they provoke AoO's, and what type of action it takes to use them.

If it is stated that manifesting a psionic power provokes an AoO, then I would infer that it is possible to ready an attack to interupt it. (IMHO at least)

 

[kreynolds]

It is my understanding that if you remove ALL components from a spell, you do not invoke an attack of opportunity. Even if you quicken a spell, you still invoke, but not if you remove all components. Think about it. How can you tell if the wizard is casting? He isn't moving. He isn't talking. He isn't reaching for materials, chanting, dancing, backflipping, etc. Basically, it's just like successfully casting defensively but you use metamagic to beef up the spell and spell level instead.

It makes sense. And yes, you can take a 5-foot step with the attack partial action, even if it is readied. All single attacks are partial actions, and nearly all partial actions allow a 5-foot step, which a single attack does but only if you are limited to a partial action.

For instance, if you are slowed by the slow spell, you are limited to only partial actions every round. That means you can take a swing and still take a 5-foot step.

Now, on to Readied actions. You can only ready a partial action. A single attack is a partial action. So, if a wizard is 5 feet away from you and he casts, you can take a step forward and whack him in the face. Conversely, you could ready a partial charge, which would indeed allow you to move up to your normal movement rate (usually 30 feet) and still take an attack, though you can only move in a straight line. Basically, as long as the wizard is within your normal movement rate, if he casts, you can pop him one.

But not if there are no components. That's the point of Stilled, Silenced, Eschew Material spells: Nobody knows you are casting. I may be wrong about this part though. I'll keep snooping around.