Readying vs. Stilled, Silenced Spell

[Petrosian]

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So, the "lowers his guard" basically means that the Wizard stops attempting to avoid blows? He stops ducking and weaving.

To some extent... not completely of course. he still retains complete dex bonus etc.

So, knowing that the Fighter has readied an action since the Fighter is solely focusing (as per the DMG paragraphs on readying an action) on the Wizard (as you say, things are observable in
combat), the Wizard could "lower his guard", allow the Fighter the readied attack, "lower his guard again", take an AoO from the Fighter, and then cast his spell.

He we suddenly go for praising a skill vs skill procedure to a sudden transition to a "presume the wizard knows all".

In readying an action, which may or may not even be directly against the wizard "ready to attack first enemy casting a spell", the fighter is much less "concentrating" than the wizard is on his spell. How do i know this? The fighter doesn't drop his guard one whit. No AoO at all.

It would seem to me that less concentration = less observable, less recognizable, etc... not suddenly MORE AUTOMATIC.

If you think that the "concentration" or "focus" of the fighter readying is SO OBVIOUS to the wizard how then can you at the same time out of the other face argue that the wizard's concentration which is enough to lower his guard is invisible, unnoticeable?

FWIW, i use opposed sense motive vs bluff checks to identify readied. I like actually using skills. Using the two skills representing "whats he up to?" and "fooling people" seems apropos.

As for the double fake, i covered the notion of the mage trying to fool the fighter into swinging at the wrong time already... BLUFF check to fool the fighter, opposed of course by sense motive. Like normal use of the bluff skill, this would not be FREE actions but rather standard actions. (if you want to change bluffing in combat to set your enemy up to free actions and even then allow multiple uses per round, you can and your rogues would LOVE YOU for it.)

So this is not all that useful except, as already noted, if the mage is hasted and wants to draw the ready without losing a spell slot..

Or, he could move back 5 feet in a lot of circumstances and the Fighter could only attack if he has a reach weapon or has readied a partial charge.

According to the FAQ, you just ready "an attack" and determine the particulars of the attack when the trigger condition occurs. A "ready attack when spell" could mean a 5' step and whack, a grapple, or whatever. He does not have to specify the specific type of attack in advance like "partial charge."

While using the word intelligent and the word fighter in the same sentence would baffle some, an INTELLIGENT mage-hunting fighter would be armed not with the great-for-orc-bashing greataxe but rather smaller THROWABLE weapons... daggers, hand axes, spears, etc... so that the back-that-spell-up mage gets a thwock-thrown-weapon-in-the-gut and we suddenly have tactical choices beating "but the 5' step always works" thingy. With quickdraw, the fighter could even draw such a weapon and throw it.

But, basically, if the Fighter knows that the Wizard is concentrating on a spell, the Wizard knows that the Fighter is readying an action and can take steps to attempt to counter it.

Correct?

Well, again, you go from "if the fighter know" to "the wizard knows" and I just don't fathom how the wizard gets autoknowledge... but maybe you meant to apply some possibility of the wizard not figuring out instantly what the enemy is thinking... maybe...maybe not.

ME? Sure *IF* the wizard knows the fighter has a readied action ( sense motive vs bluff check succeeds) he can try and thwart it. Thats called tactics.

In a recent game i was in, my sorcerer moved to get cover and then readied his MM spell vs casting to try and hit the enemy mage when he cast. The GM, and i disagree with this, with no rolls for bluff vs sense motive or anything, assumed he knew what i was waiting on, (OK, so thems the breaks) and in his turn the mage moved to put cover between us while maintaining line of sight to my companions... when he spelled the fighters, i had no line of sight to hit him with. (Sigh) While i object somewhat to the GMs automatic opresumption of "he knows you readied a spell" i do not disagree in the slightest with the notion of GIVEN THAT KNOWLEDGE the enemy making sound tactical decisions and thwarting me. The way i was rolling that night, he would have won the skill-off in all probability anyway.


Anyway, it seems you prefer to do things differently, thats cool. Yours seem contradictory t me, having the wiz auto-know the less serious concentration, but hey, your game. Your rules.

 

[Petrosian]

This may be your understanding but its not THE RULES.

If there was ever a question, see spell-like abilities which specifically have no components, is an entirely mental thing, and provoke AoOs and are interruptable and can be "combat cast" just like spells can.

It is my understanding that if you remove ALL components from a spell, you do not invoke an attack of opportunity. Even if you quicken a spell, you still invoke, but not if you remove all components. Think about it. How can you tell if the wizard is casting? He isn't moving. He isn't talking. He isn't reaching for materials, chanting, dancing, backflipping, etc. Basically, it's just like successfully casting defensively but you use metamagic to beef up the spell and spell level instead.

It makes sense. And yes, you can take a 5-foot step with the attack partial action, even if it is readied. All single attacks are partial actions, and nearly all partial actions allow a 5-foot step, which a single attack does but only if you are limited to a partial action.

For instance, if you are slowed by the slow spell, you are limited to only partial actions every round. That means you can take a swing and still take a 5-foot step.

Now, on to Readied actions. You can only ready a partial action. A single attack is a partial action. So, if a wizard is 5 feet away from you and he casts, you can take a step forward and whack him in the face. Conversely, you could ready a partial charge, which would indeed allow you to move up to your normal movement rate (usually 30 feet) and still take an attack, though you can only move in a straight line. Basically, as long as the wizard is within your normal movement rate, if he casts, you can pop him one.

But not if there are no components. That's the point of Stilled, Silenced, Eschew Material spells: Nobody knows you are casting. I may be wrong about this part though. I'll keep snooping around.

 

[kreynolds]

Spell-like abilities are not spells, they are spell-like abilities. There is a good reason they called spells spells and spell-like abilities spell-like abilities. Know why? Because they are not the same.

Furthermore, quickened spells NEVER invoke attacks of opportunity, even if they are not silenced, still, and eschewed. It's in the PHB, Table 8-4. Thus, I do not see a quickened spell triggering a readied action. Free actions are instantaneous, blink of an eye, that kind of thing. There is no way the fighter would see it coming. If he could see it coming, he would be allowed an attack of opportunity.

Look. You may be right about silenced, stilled, and eschewed spells. But if you are, I would appreciate at least a page number because I can't find it right this second. Please?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Furthermore, quickened spells NEVER invoke attacks of opportunity, even if they are not silenced, still, and eschewed. It's in the PHB, Table 8-4.

That's in error. See the D&D Rules FAQ.

 

[kreynolds]

OOOH! Nevermind! I see the logic!

Guess I had a brain fart. Cool....thanks Petrosian...but ya' don't have to be so bitter about it.

 

[kreynolds]

That's in error. See the D&D Rules FAQ.

You need to read the latest faq. This is ripped from it.

Does casting a quickened spell provoke an attack of
opportunity? Can a counterattack or counterspell be
readied against a quickened spell or is it too quick to
identify or counter?
A quickened spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity
(see Table 8–4 in the Player's Handbook). A quickened spell can be
counterspelled using the normal rules.

Where it says "A quickened spell "does not", the does not is the part they changed in the faq.

 

[KarinsDad]

My understanding is that since you can take a 5 ft. step as part of a partial that you could ready an action to take a 5 ft. step and attack, which is good because in order for something to be considered a charge you have to move at least 10 ft.

Okay I'm being somewhat picky, but I thought I'd mention it.

Yes, you are correct with one exception.

If the Fighter moves before readying his action as part of a standard action, then he cannot move the 5' with the partial.

However, again, the Wizard could see this, so he could plan accordingly.

 

[EOL]

Yes, you are correct with one exception.

If the Fighter moves before readying his action as part of a standard action, then he cannot move the 5' with the partial.

However, again, the Wizard could see this, so he could plan accordingly.

True, guess I had that coming.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You need to read the latest faq. This is ripped from it.

It has, indeed. Thanks for the update!

 

[kreynolds]

Not a problem! They release so much errata so fast and in so many different places, it's hard to keep up.