Real world myths and legends: Who's Epic Level?

[mkletch]

Tolkien

All of Tolkien's works are in a world where magic does not map well to DnD. However, looking at epic from the perspective of 'far better/cooler than most normal people can dream of', I would say that anybody that appears on a geneological chart in the back of the Silmarillion would qualify as epic, plus many others:

Feanor, Maedhros, Maglor, maybe others of the seven sons
Ingwe of the Vanyar
Elwe/Thingol Greycloak
Fingolfin, Turgon, Fingon
Hurin, Turin Turambar (killed Glaurung)
Huor, Tuor, Earendil (killed Ancalagon)
Elrond
Beren, Luthien (she sang Morgoth to sleep!), etc.
Glorfindel (killed a balrog)
Ecthelion (killed Gothmog)
Beleg Cuthalion
Cirdan

These guys were incredible, just plain incredible. The writing style of the Sil leaves a lot of the detail implied or hidden, but there really is no doubt. Consider how subtle the power scale is in Tolkien's world, then how it matches up to killing Balrogs (Balors), Dragons, Carcharoth and such. Despite the lack of flash, the characters in Tolkien's legends are certainly epic.

Some might argue that this takes this OT, but Tolkien drew so heavily from such a wide variety of real world myths that you could consider his works a 'casserole'. Not as pure as a steak (Beowulf or the Icelandic sagas), but just as filling, and perhpas more tasty depending on your mood or preference.

I don't consider Melian, Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, etc. as epic heroes. They may have epic-level prestige class levels or something, but at their heart they are (native?) outsiders, not human/elf/dwarf or similar PC types; something beyond a 'standard hero', as a previous poster said that most of Superman's abilities come from his 'Kryptonian template'.

Well, I've said more than enough...

-Fletch!

 

[Nail]

Epic levels is about....multiclassing!

Y'all should remember that one of the greatest parts of the 3e system, perhaps even the greatest part, is the ability to multi-class at th' drop of a hat....especially if yer human.

An' if we looked at a few of the heroes mentioned....like Gandalf, say.....by the time you give him all of the classes he deserves, and the appropriate power in each, yer way over 20th level. An' thus, by definition, in Epic Level territory. Gandalf wasn't a 21st level Wizard. He was a 10th Wizard/10th Fighter/10th Wizard of the Order (or some such dreck PrC). Heck, even if we lower those levels a bit, he's still over 20th.

(BTW: where are people reading he died? Interpretation? It's not in the book.....)

So really=> don't neglect multiclassing.....it makes a bunch of 'em Epic.

-Nail

 

[Crom and His Devils]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Beowulf *not* outclassed by Sigurd

Good point, although he was still in good shape so presumably at the peak of his career level-wise. You reckon it took barbarian rage to rip Grendel's arm off? I was just wondering today why D&D trolls are so much the exact opposite of Grendel - easy to hurt, but hard to hurt permanently. Grendel's skin was immune to weapons but he bled to death after losing his arm. Plus he had acid blood, while D&D trolls are vulnerable to acid. Kind of a mirror-universe thing.

Well, that is the problem, isn't it? Do we qualify Beowulf's feats of strength to Rage, or do we write him up as having a "naturally" superhuman STR, and leave it at that? Dragon magazine back in the early 80s had an article with three D&D interpretations of Beowulf, and each creator saw things differently.

In 3e, I'd model Grendel as some sort of ogre variant, perhaps an ogre with the fiendish template with some extra abilities to translate tale-speak to game-speak.

One of the things I hope the epic-level book will do is provide characters with feats and what-not that eliminate the need to carry around a wal-mart's volume-worth of magical items to be tough. The largest amount of magic items I can remember one hero carrying at one particular time in mythology is Perseus, and he had a magic sword, helm, shield, and steed, IIRC.

 

[Zhure]

Didn't Odysseus have a bow no one else could string? Maybe it was magical; maybe it was an epic ability.

Maybe Achilles was a 20th level monk. As a native outsider with 20/+1 damage reduction, he could probably seem invulnerable to almost any nonmagical attack. The one guy who shot him in the heel must've done a critical, or had a magic arrow, or both.

Greg

 

[Zhure]

REMO

I was going to say Chiun, but really, they're only monks or Psychic Warriors. Up the Walls fits in really well.

Greg

 

[Crom and His Devils]

Didn't Odysseus have a bow no one else could string? Maybe it was magical; maybe it was an epic ability.

Maybe Achilles was a 20th level monk. As a native outsider with 20/+1 damage reduction, he could probably seem invulnerable to almost any nonmagical attack. The one guy who shot him in the heel must've done a critical, or had a magic arrow, or both.

Greg

Achilles' mom dipped him into the river Styx as a child to make him a 20th level monk?

 

[buzzard]

Colonel, I think this is a fun topic, so I'll give it a shot.
Non-Epic Level Characters

Superman (Expert15). I don't see Superman's powers and abilities coming from training, or gaining power. Instead, I'd say that Superman is a human with the "Kryptonian" template. His levels, as I see it, have been earned while in the Clark Kent persona, with feats such as Weapon Focus (Eye Beams), Improved Unarmed Strike, and Skill Focus (Photography) and ranks in Profession (journalist) and Profession (copywriter).

On a side note, Superman could probably wipe the floor with a lot of epic-level characters (the "Kryptonian" Template is a munchkin dream ) but as far as levels go, he just doesn't have that many. And we're discussing levels here, which is not always the same as power level.

Okay, this is too long as it is, but that's my take on a few. Thanks for the topic, Colonel.

[Edit] typos... [/edit]

But what you are forgetting is that Kryptonian will have one heck of a high ECL. Thus he will end up as an epic level character, even if none of this character levels are 20+.
If you think of the stats for a Kryptonian, even with current whimpy model, not the silver age supes, the ECL must be 30 or 40. I'd almost have to say higher in fact.
Let's see what he has:
Str- rather unmappable to D&D numbers but say +100 Dex +20
Con +20

Damage reduction 200/+1 (you simply can't harm him without magic so maybe more).
Improved initiative.
fly always available
Movement +100 (+200? 300? It could be almost any number you choose really)
Then we have to cover super hearing, super vision, heat vision, x-ray vision, super ventriloquism (just kidding- some silver age humor).

Yes, as a character Supes hasn't too many levels, but his ECL makes him well over the top. Just as if a character was a 10th level fighter/ Storm Giant. He would be epic as well.

buzzard

 

[Zhure]

Achilles' mom dipped him into the river Styx as a child to make him a 20th level monk?

"Good grief! How'd you become invlunerable?"

Achilles: "For many years, I studied the estoric arts, increasing the flow of my chi...

::stares at blank look::

... ok, ok, my mom dipped me into the river Styx."

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Uh guys

You're trying to ride the horse backwards.

Just because a game some American guys with questionable knowledge of myths and epics made ... you try to scale some heroes by that very game?

E.g.: He didn't have this spell, thus he can't be level blah...

Those stories have not been written or told with D&D game mechanics in mind. So let me simply quote Sir Bob if anyone posts such petty arguments: Nih!

This is a good point (although the game designers being American would give them familiarity with our own versions of the epic - comic books). As I said initially, no one can be right or wrong in this; people posting their rationales about how they came to a conclusion about a given hero is fascinating. Arguing about how one arrives at such conclusions (beyond good-natured banter, or pointing out specific instances in the source material that supports or refutes those conclusions) seems beyond the scope of the subject for this thread.

Let's see, more Epic/non-Epic:

Epic

Conan
the Grey Mouser (later in life, and probably below 25th level)
the Dominator (from the Black Company books)
the Ten Who Were Taken (fom the Black Company books - low Epic levels)


non-Epic

Fafhrd (close, but not quite Epic)
Hawkmoon
Corum

 

[buzzard]

Re: Re: Uh guys

non-Epic

Fafhrd (close, but not quite Epic)
Hawkmoon
Corum

I certainly have to agree about Corum. He didn't seem to have much in the way of abilities other than the eye and hand of a god. I don't even remember if he could do much of anything in that second series.

I don't know if I agree about the Grey Mouser. I don't remember him being that much more powerful than Fafhrd.

Now for a tricky one- is Elric Epic? now we have to leave Stormbringer out to an extent, since a toddler could be Epic wielding that beast. He did seem to have some pretty powerful magics at is disposal.

Buzzard