D&D General Rebuilding a new monk (+)

[jmartkdr2]

Are you saying at least three saliently different base classes, that together can reasonably represent the features of all of the D&D traditions?

What would these three classes look like?

Champion, Battlemaster, and Eldritch Knight. (Names not final)

 

[Yaarel]

Trying to consolidate too much design space is just going to make the execution of each concept unfocused and messy, look at the current fighter now: one of the most common points made against it is that it’s expected to hold up too many concepts and thus does none of them really well

Base classes imo could be

-bulky knight (high damage, high armour/damage reduction, but not very mobile and lacks good ranged options

-mobile skirmisher (very mobile, good all-rounder but doesn’t naturally excel in any one area)

-ranged interference (picks off enemies from a distance and inflicts negative conditions, but frail and lacks good close range options)

-martial support (decent defence, low damage themselves but provides buffs and support to other allies to compensate)

Ahh. Yeah. The range "artillery" deserves its own base class.

(Historically, "cavalry" was a separate unit, but in D&D I feel any of light, heavy, or range can be on mounts.)

The Skirmisher excels at athletics and mobility. Some might specialize in immobilizing foes, whether by traps, pressure points, dirty tricks, or whatever.

 

[Yaarel]

Champion, Battlemaster, and Eldritch Knight. (Names not final)

For me, an Eldritch Knight and Paladin seem like Knight subclasses with different features and spell lists.

Probably a psionic warrior is a Skirmisher, but its force armor or shapechanging can have high AC, similar to Barbarian.

 

[jmartkdr2]

For me, an Eldritch Knight and Paladin seem like Knight subclasses with different features and spell lists.

Probably a psionic warrior is a Skirmisher, but its force armor or shapechanging can have high AC, similar to Barbarian.

Subclasses generally don’t get unique spell lists (because that would be a pain to handle when adding spells).

And I would argue that even with unarmed versions of fighter, swashbuckler, swordmage and paladin we could still use a separate monk class for characters focused on ki (which is magic bit not spellcasting).

 

[Yaarel]

even with unarmed versions of fighter, swashbuckler, swordmage and paladin we could still use a separate monk class for characters focused on ki (which is magic bit not spellcasting).

Hypothetically, nonmagic unarmed attacks improve while leveling.

Meanwhile, where Monk has ki, Paladin could have smite.

I view the Swordmage as a fullcaster whose spells are generally range 10 or melee, or even unarmed. It has a superhero feel.

 

[DND_Reborn]

If you have to give the monk +Prof mod to AC and Wis Mod more Ki, that's proof that the monk is undertuned.

You certainly don't have to. In our games the only two house-rules for monks are:

1. Martial Arts damage is one die better. We did this just to encourage them to actually use unarmed strikes instead of monk weapons. It is only an average of +1 damage, so losing it really wouldn't bother me, either.

2. Unarmored Movement - Monks can use their reaction to stand if prone. The classic roll/kick-up (?) when a martial artist is knocked down.

That's it. We played an all monk game until 7th level without adding extra ki or better AC and it was a ton of fun.

YMMV, of course.

I don't agree that Monk AC is fine because Rogues. Rogues are perfectly able to function outside of melee- Monks are not.

Pfft!

Monks are great equally outside of combat as good or better than other martial classes--everyone has their best "thing" of course. Step of the Wind alone is great for exploration challenges. And as I pointed out, Monks have AC relatively (+1/-1) on par with other PCs of the same level other than the plate wearing heavy armor types; but that 1500 gp investment is pretty heavy in most games IME.

Again, YMMV, of course.

My point is there is a lot that could be done, but I've seen several monks in my own games and others and people having been enjoying them feeling like they can contribute, etc. as well as pretty much any one else.

Once more, YMMV, of course.

 

[James Gasik]

You certainly don't have to. In our games the only two house-rules for monks are:

1. Martial Arts damage is one die better. We did this just to encourage them to actually use unarmed strikes instead of monk weapons. It is only an average of +1 damage, so losing it really wouldn't bother me, either.

2. Unarmored Movement - Monks can use their reaction to stand if prone. The classic roll/kick-up (?) when a martial artist is knocked down.

That's it. We played an all monk game until 7th level without adding extra ki or better AC and it was a ton of fun.

YMMV, of course.


Pfft!

Monks are great equally outside of combat as good or better than other martial classes--everyone has their best "thing" of course. Step of the Wind alone is great for exploration challenges. And as I pointed out, Monks have AC relatively (+1/-1) on par with other PCs of the same level other than the plate wearing heavy armor types; but that 1500 gp investment is pretty heavy in most games IME.

Again, YMMV, of course.

My point is there is a lot that could be done, but I've seen several monks in my own games and others and people having been enjoying them feeling like they can contribute, etc. as well as pretty much any one else.

Once more, YMMV, of course.

I didn't say combat. I said melee, as in, standing toe-to-toe with monsters and people with stabby weapons. The Monk kind of has to do this to use their main offensive capabilities (barring certain subclasses). The Rogue can launch Sneak Attacks at foes using a bow. Sure, Monks can Dodge as a bonus action, but that costs ki they also would want to be using on offense, and it only lasts a round.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I didn't say combat. I said melee, as in, standing toe-to-toe with monsters and people with stabby weapons. The Monk kind of has to do this to use their main offensive capabilities (barring certain subclasses). The Rogue can launch Sneak Attacks at foes using a bow. Sure, Monks can Dodge as a bonus action, but that costs ki they also would want to be using on offense, and it only lasts a round.

Monks can use, and do use, shortbows often for the whole "ranged" combat thing.

With Extra Attack, they get 2 attacks with (typically) a good to great DEX bonus for damage -- same as a Paladin or Barbarian using a bow (well, they probably would go with the whole longbow, but I mean really big deal it's one more point of damage on average...).

And, again, I don't expect every class to be as good as every other class at every thing. Some excel at one thing, others at another.