D&D General Rebuilding a new monk (+)

[CleverNickName]

Huh. The leading votes in the poll are consistent with the current options available for the monk in 5th Edition D&D. I honestly didn't expect that, considering all of the threads I've seen here about how the monk "needs" to be "fixed."

Anyway. I voted "Monks as [Other]," because I want the Monk to be a subclass of Fighter. It never sat right with me that it was its own separate class...even back in 3E, I wanted it to be a prestige class of Fighter.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Huh. The leading votes in the poll are consistent with the current options available for the monk in 5th Edition D&D. I honestly didn't expect that, considering all of the threads I've seen here about how the monk "needs" to be "fixed."

Anyway. I voted "Monks as [Other]," because I want the Monk to be a subclass of Fighter. It never sat right with me that it was its own separate class...even back in 3E, I wanted it to be a prestige class of Fighter.

why it makes no sense? should ranger and paladin also be fighters?

 

[CleverNickName]

why it makes no sense? should ranger and paladin also be fighters?

It doesn't make sense to me. It's just the way my brain works: I regard martial arts as just another style of fighting. Fencing, archery, boxing--they all take years of training and discipline to master. (shrug)

And yes, absolutely, rangers and paladins should also be subclasses of Fighter...barbarians too, now that you mention it. But that's a whole other thread.

 

[Mind of tempest]

It doesn't make sense to me. It's just the way my brain works: I regard martial arts as just another style of fighting. Fencing, archery, boxing--they all take years of training and discipline to master. (shrug)

And yes, absolutely, rangers and paladins should also be subclasses of Fighter...but that's a whole other thread.

that is like saying dogs cats and bears are all the same thing they are all types of Carnivora.

they are separated by class fantasy which is why you can't make cleric and wizard the same thing.

 

[CleverNickName]

that is like saying dogs cats and bears are all the same thing they are all types of Carnivora.

they are separated by class fantasy which is why you can't make cleric and wizard the same thing.

You asked for my opinion, and so I shared it. Clearly we disagree, but that's okay!

 

[Minigiant]

Huh. The leading votes in the poll are consistent with the current options available for the monk in 5th Edition D&D. I honestly didn't expect that, considering all of the threads I've seen here about how the monk "needs" to be "fixed."

Because the monk doesn't do any of them well.

For example, Unarmored Defense. by the rules a starting monk with 16 Dex and 14 Wis only has an AC of 15 and has to wait until level4 to get to 16 AC.

Or Ki abilities. The monk lack enough ki to do them often. So either they need more k or the monk needs to be able to do them for free at a weakened capacity.

Or Improved Movement speed. The Monk is slower than a Rogue because the Monk relies on Ki to move fast.


The monk really should have a column for bonus AC and bonus attacks. And the column for bonus movement should scale faster.

 

[Minigiant]

It doesn't make sense to me. It's just the way my brain works: I regard martial arts as just another style of fighting. Fencing, archery, boxing--they all take years of training and discipline to master. (shrug)

And yes, absolutely, rangers and paladins should also be subclasses of Fighter...barbarians too, now that you mention it. But that's a whole other thread.

The main issue is with monks, rangers, and paladins as subclasses of fighters is

1. D&D subclasses have never be big enough to fit it all. For example, the monk requires
   1. An Unarmed damage boost
   2. An Unarmed attack boost
   3. Special Unarmed Actions
   4. An Unarmored AC boost
   5. An Unarmored speed boost
   6. Special Unarmored Actions
2. What does the fighter who isn't a barbarian, monk, paladin, or ranger get
   1. 70% of the playtest was arguing about this

AKA "X as a subclass of Fighter" is easy to say, very very very very very very very difficult to design.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Because the monk doesn't do any of them well.

I disagree. I think the monk does do them well.

For example, Unarmored Defense. by the rules a starting monk with 16 Dex and 14 Wis only has an AC of 15 and has to wait until level4 to get to 16 AC.

Or Ki abilities. The monk lack enough ki to do them often. So either they need more k or the monk needs to be able to do them for free at a weakened capacity.

Or Improved Movement speed. The Monk is slower than a Rogue because the Monk relies on Ki to move fast.

AC 15 in tier 1 is decent. A rogue with DEX 16 will also have AC 15. A greatweapon fighter with heavy armor is likely AC 16, etc.

The monk is right there with them. Now, what I think is the DEX + WIS model should be replaced with DEX + WIS + Proficiency bonus (or the best two of those three, removing a little of the MAD for monks).

Ki is adequate IME, but I understand why many people feel they need more ki, and adding WIS mod ki points solves that issue IMO.

The +10 speed of monks at 2nd level and beyond is all the time. Rogues can Dash each round, but at the expense of other bonus actions. The extra movement of monks is constant and goes to +30 in the end.

The monk really should have a column for bonus AC and bonus attacks. And the column for bonus movement should scale faster.

Either replacing DEX or WIS with proficiency bonus would allow a Monk to get AC 21 in tier 4. Using all three might be too strong, but will remove some of the MAD dependency as I said.

Bonus attacks are already there. Adding a bit more ki allows more uses, which is sufficient to me. Even without it, at level 5 monks can get three attacks each round anyway.

 

[Minigiant]

I disagree. I think the monk does do them well.

The issue is the monk can't keep it up for long (ki) and gets displaced by time (level, better equipment.) By the time it evens out, the campaign is over.

That was always the problem. The fighter and rogue and ranger get better faster with fewer resources than the monk. If you have to give the monk +Prof mod to AC and Wis Mod more Ki, that's proof that the monk is undertuned.

 

[James Gasik]

I don't agree that Monk AC is fine because Rogues. Rogues are perfectly able to function outside of melee- Monks are not.