Nac Mac Feegle
First Post
Even an AC of 36 is nothing to sneeze at 
I take it you're gearing up to be our front-line fighter?
I take it you're gearing up to be our front-line fighter?
Recruiting for a High Level Planescape Campaign (dead, see the last post, sorry)
- Thread starter A Crazy Fool
- Start date
Nephtys
First Post
Nac Mac Feegle said:
That's a bit silly, though it's probably true. Would he get iterative attacks if he wedged a dagger as a toothpick between two of his teeth? Would he get iterative attacks (in addition to the other natural attacks) if he held a weapon in one of his claws like some other monsters (the Marilith for ex.)? If so, then why shouldn't he get iterative attacks with his primary natural weapon? Dragons are not some dumb animals, after all, but skilled fighters.
One of those inconsistensies that will hopefully be corrected in the new edition.
I'll fix it.
A Crazy Fool, can a dragon wield a weapon in one of its claws and get iterative attacks that way? (Their claws have to be pretty dextrous or they wouldn't be able to play with all the coins and trinkets in their hoards
) Can a dragon use some rare exotic draconic tooth dagger, or a nasty set of tooth-braces, and get iterative attacks that way?A Crazy Fool said:
I had no idea. Could I just get rid of the braces of armour instead?
(its fine, just kidding)
Nac Mac Feegle said:Even an AC of 36 is nothing to sneeze at
I take it you're gearing up to be our front-line fighter?
Maybe, it depends on what we're up against and where we're fighting. He's very weak in alternate form, and depending on where the game takes us that could be a lot of the time.
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Nac Mac Feegle
First Post
It's not really an inconsistency. The system is that you can't use natural attacks if you're wielding a normal weapon, so you have the choice of wielding a weapon with iterative attacks or a full set of attacks with all your natural weapons. I mean, you shouldn't feel bad, instead of of getting 4 attacks at progressively worse bonuses, you get 6 at full.
As someone who's played several dragons in several games, I have some RAW answers. Crazy is of course, welcome to HR. 
1) Weapons. Dragons cannot use manufactured weapons in their claws. They can use special weapons made to fit over the tips of their tails, or that augment their natural weapons...but those are considered to still be natural weapons for multiple attack purposes. A dragon in a humanoid shape could use weapons, and get iterative attacks, but dragons do not get any weapon proficiencies that I am aware of, so you'd need to blow a feat on it.
- Ah ha! Metallic dragons that have Alternate Form DO get Simple weapon proficiency. Again, mostly useful for alternate form, since they can't manipulate weapons with their claws.
2) Alternate Form. Assuming forms that cannot wear a particular item causes that item to meld with the form, and become inoperative. Specifically, bracers would work for dragons and humanoids, but not snakes or eagles. Similarly, some of your statboosters might not work while in some forms as well, depending on what they wind up being.
3) ECL - A 16HD dragon is not ECL 16, nor balanced to be adventuring with ECL 16s. Even with Crazy's rather relaxed ECL rules, it seems kind of weird that several of us have 14 HD or less and are considered to be ECL 16, while the dragon, which has the best monster HD of all, has full HD. Admittedly, since we're all on the same side, it's not really any skin off my nose...but if you want to know why there's such a big jump in AC, HP, attack bonus and so on with the dragon as compared to the rest of us...that's why.
1) Weapons. Dragons cannot use manufactured weapons in their claws. They can use special weapons made to fit over the tips of their tails, or that augment their natural weapons...but those are considered to still be natural weapons for multiple attack purposes. A dragon in a humanoid shape could use weapons, and get iterative attacks, but dragons do not get any weapon proficiencies that I am aware of, so you'd need to blow a feat on it.
- Ah ha! Metallic dragons that have Alternate Form DO get Simple weapon proficiency. Again, mostly useful for alternate form, since they can't manipulate weapons with their claws.
2) Alternate Form. Assuming forms that cannot wear a particular item causes that item to meld with the form, and become inoperative. Specifically, bracers would work for dragons and humanoids, but not snakes or eagles. Similarly, some of your statboosters might not work while in some forms as well, depending on what they wind up being.
3) ECL - A 16HD dragon is not ECL 16, nor balanced to be adventuring with ECL 16s. Even with Crazy's rather relaxed ECL rules, it seems kind of weird that several of us have 14 HD or less and are considered to be ECL 16, while the dragon, which has the best monster HD of all, has full HD. Admittedly, since we're all on the same side, it's not really any skin off my nose...but if you want to know why there's such a big jump in AC, HP, attack bonus and so on with the dragon as compared to the rest of us...that's why.
A Crazy Fool
First Post
I looked at the numbers again (Numbers are not my friends. They threaten to eat me.) Shayuri is right. 277 HP, etc. is way high. Looking at it again, a juvenile gold dragon with HD reduced to 14 would work better (and be a more reasonable size to boot). The drop in power may be a bit much, and if it is we can add a class level or two. (I've only run 2 dragons in my entire D&D career. Their statblocks scare the willies out of me.)
Initially, the character was an item, yeah, but I realized that that was mostly window-dressing on the concept, and simpler is probably better in that respect.
Ur Priest prereqs and caster progression (the only part of the class the guy would get):[sblock]
Ur-priests despise gods. However, a small number of them have learned to tap into divine power and use it for their own needs without praying to or worshiping a deity.
Instead, each day they go into a trance and mentally steal the power that gods normally channel to devout clerics. Ur-priests are canny and cunning, never stealing too much
power from any one deity, but instead metaphysically slip in, draw out the power they need for their spells, and slip out again. They learn to be resilient toward divine power
and creative with the energies that they steal. The greatest ur-priest commands the level of power of the most powerful cleric, although she does not have the cleric’s variety of spellcasting options.
A member of any class can become an ur-priest, even— and in fact, especially—an ex-cleric.
Ur-priests frequently work alone, although they occasionally find partnerships with members of other classes useful.
They do not congregate into anything resembling temples, for they fear that too many of them in one place might draw unwanted divine attention. And of course they rarely associate
with clerics or any other divine spellcasters, whom they see as lackeys and who view them as abominations.
Adaptation: This prestige class is written to describe characters who steal divine power from the gods and use it themselves. It’s also a good choice, however, for ex-clerics of gods who’ve somehow lost their connection to their deity (because the deity died, disappeared, or faded from existence because he had too few worshipers). Secret societies of ur-priests could exist for the express purpose of elevating (or reelevating) someone or something to godhood.
Hit Die: d8.
Alignment: Any evil.
Base Save Bonus: Fort +3, Will +3.
Skills: Bluff 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks,
Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8
ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus (evil).
Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken.
The character must be trained by another ur-priest.
Caster level is calculated by Ur-Priest class level+1/2other spellcasting class levels[/sblock]
I can post the rest of the class if you like, I'm just lazy.
Ur Priest prereqs and caster progression (the only part of the class the guy would get):[sblock]
Ur-priests despise gods. However, a small number of them have learned to tap into divine power and use it for their own needs without praying to or worshiping a deity.
Instead, each day they go into a trance and mentally steal the power that gods normally channel to devout clerics. Ur-priests are canny and cunning, never stealing too much
power from any one deity, but instead metaphysically slip in, draw out the power they need for their spells, and slip out again. They learn to be resilient toward divine power
and creative with the energies that they steal. The greatest ur-priest commands the level of power of the most powerful cleric, although she does not have the cleric’s variety of spellcasting options.
A member of any class can become an ur-priest, even— and in fact, especially—an ex-cleric.
Ur-priests frequently work alone, although they occasionally find partnerships with members of other classes useful.
They do not congregate into anything resembling temples, for they fear that too many of them in one place might draw unwanted divine attention. And of course they rarely associate
with clerics or any other divine spellcasters, whom they see as lackeys and who view them as abominations.
Adaptation: This prestige class is written to describe characters who steal divine power from the gods and use it themselves. It’s also a good choice, however, for ex-clerics of gods who’ve somehow lost their connection to their deity (because the deity died, disappeared, or faded from existence because he had too few worshipers). Secret societies of ur-priests could exist for the express purpose of elevating (or reelevating) someone or something to godhood.
Hit Die: d8.
Alignment: Any evil.
Base Save Bonus: Fort +3, Will +3.
Skills: Bluff 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks,
Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8
ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus (evil).
Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken.
The character must be trained by another ur-priest.
Code:
—————— Spells per Day ——————
0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 4 2 — — — — — — — —
2nd 5 3 0 — — — — — — —
3rd 5 3 1 0 — — — — — —
4th 6 3 2 1 0 — — — — —
5th 6 3 3 2 1 0 — — — —
6th 6 3 3 3 2 1 0 — — —
7th 6 4 3 3 3 2 1 0 — —
8th 6 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 0 —
9th 6 5 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 0
10th 6 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 2 1Caster level is calculated by Ur-Priest class level+1/2other spellcasting class levels[/sblock]
I can post the rest of the class if you like, I'm just lazy.
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A Crazy Fool
First Post
If there's other stuff I might need (I'm thinking how they steal power from the gods, etc. (stuff I'd need to understand the class)) It uses the cleric list, right?
Yeah, it uses the cleric list, no spontaneous casting, and the character would be sufficiently tight on feats that Spontaneous Foo feats would be hard to take.
I've edited the previous post to add the flavor paragraphs from CD. I'd like to lean the flavor a little more towards the "ascending to godhood" option, of course, though I don't see him putting together a little cell of Ur-Priests for that purpose anytime soon.
I've edited the previous post to add the flavor paragraphs from CD. I'd like to lean the flavor a little more towards the "ascending to godhood" option, of course, though I don't see him putting together a little cell of Ur-Priests for that purpose anytime soon.
Nephtys
First Post
Then I think I'll be better off playing a Trumpet Archon, Ghaele Eladrin or perhaps even a Xill with multiweapon fighting...
Remember that in his dragon form he can't deal with most forms of DR or regeneration, his touch AC is terrible (he's a Harm-magnet) and his immunity to fire is a much lesser deal than his vulnerability to cold. All he's really good at is scaring mobs (which is a huge weakness in populated areas) and standing toe to toe with other melee monsters (without DR). He won't cast spells in combat, as a 5th level caster his spells aren't worth the time to cast and their durations are too short to be cast with much foresight.
In humanoid form he's extremely weak since he simply cannot afford the equipment he'd need to be a viable fighter, and the animal forms are just for scouting. ACF has already implied that he would have to spend a lot of time in his alternate forms, so this could be a huge issue.
Knock him down to Juvenile and he won't even he able to harm incorporeal undead (and it isn't a good idea to fight some of them (as well as oozes, pseudoelementals and a lot of other nasties) with only natural weapons anyway.) The breath weapon can only be used in pretty specific instances, like when we're not fighting in a city of wooden houses.
Now, on the other hand, let's take a look at the Arcanoloth.
Outsider HDs, nearly as good as Dragon with less HPs but more skills. Massive immunities and ungodly DR. Plenty of useful and powerful spells as SLAs in addition to being able to cast as a 13th level Wizard. Superior SR, not inconsiderable natural armour, and this little bonus...
They can only be destroyed if fought on the plane of Gehenna.
I don't think my dragon is that imbalanced, after all.
Remember that in his dragon form he can't deal with most forms of DR or regeneration, his touch AC is terrible (he's a Harm-magnet) and his immunity to fire is a much lesser deal than his vulnerability to cold. All he's really good at is scaring mobs (which is a huge weakness in populated areas) and standing toe to toe with other melee monsters (without DR). He won't cast spells in combat, as a 5th level caster his spells aren't worth the time to cast and their durations are too short to be cast with much foresight.
In humanoid form he's extremely weak since he simply cannot afford the equipment he'd need to be a viable fighter, and the animal forms are just for scouting. ACF has already implied that he would have to spend a lot of time in his alternate forms, so this could be a huge issue.
Knock him down to Juvenile and he won't even he able to harm incorporeal undead (and it isn't a good idea to fight some of them (as well as oozes, pseudoelementals and a lot of other nasties) with only natural weapons anyway.) The breath weapon can only be used in pretty specific instances, like when we're not fighting in a city of wooden houses.
Now, on the other hand, let's take a look at the Arcanoloth.
Outsider HDs, nearly as good as Dragon with less HPs but more skills. Massive immunities and ungodly DR. Plenty of useful and powerful spells as SLAs in addition to being able to cast as a 13th level Wizard. Superior SR, not inconsiderable natural armour, and this little bonus...
They can only be destroyed if fought on the plane of Gehenna.
I don't think my dragon is that imbalanced, after all.
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Nac Mac Feegle
First Post
So...each dragon level will give you natural armor and 2 extra hit points. Also, I just don't see where the problem in lacking an iterative attack is. Having 6 attacks at your full BAB doesn't seem lacking to me.
Of course, the usual caveats of it being your character not mine apply. Just advice.
Of course, the usual caveats of it being your character not mine apply. Just advice.
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