Red Wizard - What the hell was WotC smoking????

[Grog]

We're talking EL 17. A 14th level party versus EL 17 should be hard pushed.And I think you underestimate the power of a marilith. I've seen a well used 3.5 marilith rip apart a 21st level party by itself. Still, a 14th level PC should have 7th level spells. A nice delayed blast fireball should do the trick against 9th level wizards. 14d6 damage (49 average) versus wizards with hit points in the high 20s?

Again, the 9th level wizards won't be in the fight. That's the whole point - they don't need to be. They add their power to the leader at the beginning of the day, and that's all they need to contribute.

Second, we're talking the leader here. A leader of a very evil organization. Even if he has a huge advantage, the leader is the last one to actually get into battle. A cleric with an antimagic aura around him would completely destroy this wizard. A single failed save can still kill him.

Cleric casts AMF, wizard teleports away until it wears off. And as for killing him with a save-or-die spell, he'll just buff himself with Spell Resistance before the fight. A caster level of 25 gives him SR 37. A 14th level caster would need Greater Spell Penetration to even have a chance of affecting him with a spell, and even then it would only work on a 19 or 20. If he wants to play things safe, he'll raise his caster level to 27 or maybe even 30. Now he's completely immune to any magic the party can throw at him.

Yes, this ability can be grossly abused if the DM builds the game in that fashion. This is primarily an NPC class. If the DM wants to kill the PCs, he can just send a great red wyrm against the PCs at 10th level. The DM can *always* kill the PCs. In the hands of a PC, this ability should be far weaker. He needs to have cohorts and followers and he needs to keep them close at hand. It is still possible to get very high caster levels and multiple metamagic feats (empowered, maximized and heightened to 9th level), but only under very limited circumstances and only if the DM allows him to be built up in that manner.

First, he can Heighten spells up to 20th level, just so you know.

And I know the DM can always kill the PCs. Again, that's not the point. I already reached the conclusion that this class was a walking TPK and decided not to use it. I'm talking about the class the way it's written in the DMG. It's absolutely ridiculous that they nerfed Spell Focus, which was not a game balance problem, and left this in. The class, as written, is unusable because if it's played intelligently (as a high-level wizard should be played) it will utterly obliterate parties that are even 5+ levels higher than it is.

The class is not balanced. That's my complaint.

 

[Grog]

I think it makes for a very cool adventure concept.

Just like you can't kill a Lich directly, you can't take on this wizard directly. You have to kill his apprentices before he's vulnerable.

I like the idea a lot.

I considered this, actually.

The challenge would have been for the party to infiltrate the wizard's stronghold and kill the apprentices before facing the wizard himself.

But what I couldn't get past was the fact that, if through one small mistake or just simple bad luck they met the wizard, it would have been an instant TPK. I don't mind punishing the party for big mistakes - but a TPK as the price for a small slip just wasn't my idea of a fun adventure.

 

[Nifft]

The challenge would have been for the party to infiltrate the wizard's stronghold and kill the apprentices before facing the wizard himself.

Do these apprentices never leave on their own? Are they chained to the walls of the stronghold? Don't they have lives of their own?

The way I'd run it is that, f the wizard knows of a threat, he gathers his apprentices to him. This takes 1d4 days, plus one day for them to do the Circle Magic thing.

If the threat fails to materialize -- say, the PCs get wise to the fact that he's got his apprentices around, so they lay low for a few weeks -- the apprentices grow restless and want to get on with their lives.

Summoning apprentices costs the wizard politically (he owes them favors) and financially (he has to pay them for travel and the favor of Circle Magic, probably with scrolls of spells they want).

If he takes the Leadership Feat, he'll have one always-on-call Cohort/apprentice who'll always be available to boost him. That's not TOO much of a power-boost, but it does give him access to the Circle Magic class ability even if he's caught unawares.

-- N

 

[Grog]

Do these apprentices never leave on their own? Are they chained to the walls of the stronghold? Don't they have lives of their own?

The way I'd run it is that, f the wizard knows of a threat, he gathers his apprentices to him. This takes 1d4 days, plus one day for them to do the Circle Magic thing.

Well, if they're his apprentices, they're going to be staying close to him in order to learn. And since they're the source of his power, the wizard will make sure they're well-protected. The challenge of the adventure would have been to get past those protections, but like I said, I just didn't think it would work.

 

[Nail]

Well, if they're his apprentices, they're going to be staying close to him in order to learn. And since they're the source of his power, the wizard will make sure they're well-protected. The challenge of the adventure would have been to get past those protections, but like I said, I just didn't think it would work.

Three problems with this, as I see it:

Problem #1) Cost You're treating the organization as an individual. It's not. It's made of people, all with their own personal agendas (mainly: self advancement), and they do not mesh together harmoniously. These "appentices" you keep talking about may be lower on the pecking order, but they all require payment of some kind.

Problem #2) Apprenticeship You're mis-using the word "apprentice". Given the 3.5e D&D paradigm, no wizard needs "teaching" from a master to advance in power. Power advancement comes from XP, plain and simple....and what challenges are these supposed apprentices facing, in order to gain XP? They are certainly not hidding out in their "master's" impregnable fortress.

Problem #3) Hey! The red wizard PrC isn't in the SRD! (of course.) Could someone post what this "circle power" is, so we can get a look at it???!!

 

[jester47]

Looking at the description, it seems to me that if a Red Wizard was going for broke and he was 15th level and had 9 apprentices of 9th level, after the 1 hour ceremony, he would have 45 levels to play with. Assuming he has maxed out his intelligence, he can cast 8th level spells as a 20th level caster.

Right.

so he gets his 45 levels to play with.

Lets say he is an enchanter.
So he can only take his caster level to 40th. That eats up 20 of his 45 spell levels. So we treat him as a spellcaster of 40th level for today.

He then decides to use cast an enchantment- antipathy, he has scried a powerful group of heroesapproaching his secret stronghold and wants to send them on thier way. As it stands now he can cover a voume of 40 10ft cubes. to create an area that he wants to repel them from. So he can't maximise or empower the spell, but he can heighten it. So he makes it a 20th level spell. The heros cant save and so they leave and don't come back for three days.

In that time he can power up again.

Woe be to them if he is an evoker.

However, if the characters are smart they will find out what his prohibited schools are and make use of attacks that require that kind of magic to stop. Every red wizard has 3 (for diviners) or 4 prohibited schools. Figureing out what his first ones were would allow the characters to get at him. Also chances are that his apprentices follow a similar path. At least they would be less likely to study a school that is prohibited by thier master.

Also, keep in mind that even if he does not go for broke on one spell, he is most likely to use up a lot of spare levels very quickly if he were say an evoker in a toe to toe fight... Especially if he has maxed out his caster level. Also, if he is away from his home, or his apprentices are off on long term errends, his power will be less. When you really look at it, its not THAT bad.

Certainly no one to be trifled with.

Also, he could loose initiative. DMs First rule: Never underestimate the players.

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

Red wizard circle magic:

Ceremony takes 1hr.

Requires circle leader and at least 2 others.

all others have to stand within 10' of leader.

Each casts 1 spell. The leader absorbs the spell levels.

The leader then has options:
He can raise his caster level for the purpose of spell effects
or he can metamagic his spells with empower, maximise and heightened up to 20th level.

After 24 hours he looses the extra spell levels.

Aaron.

 

[Urbannen]

Am I missing something? How can a 15th level spellcaster Heighten a spell to 20th level? In order to do that the spellcaster would need improved spell capacity spell slots from 10th to 20th level (11 epic feats) and an Intelligence of 30.

 

[Pax]

Seriously. They nerfed Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus but left this in? I was planning an adventure for a 13th-14th level party and was looking at using one of these guys for a villian (after adapting the organization to my campaign world). Boy did I drop that idea fast.

It's insane how powerful these guys are. Look at a 10th level Red Wizard (15th level character). First of all, he's effectively a 20th level caster right off the bat, and he doesn't even have to sacrifice spell slots to increase his caster level like the new Archmage does.

15th level in total? So by himself, he's already a touch more powerful than the usual run-of-the-mill encounter for your party (up by +1 or +2 CRs).

And no, he's NOT effectively a 20th level caster. He's a 15th levl caster, with +10 caster levels when casting spells. He doesn't get to prepare any extra spells per day, nor cast spells of a higher level than any other 15th level specialist.

Further, he has four, coun 'em four, opposition schools, none of them being Divination. And 5 of those bonus caster levels are specific to only one school.

But the real problems start when you look at the Circle Leader ability. If he leads a circle of, say, 9 9th level wizards, each of them can cast a 5th level spell, giving him 45 spell levels in his pool. He can crank his caster level to 25 and still have 40 levels left over to metamagic his spells without increasing their level.

He will NEVER lead a circle of 9 ninth-level wizards. Period.

Circle LEader lets him lead a Circle, should he happen to have one. However, it doesn't give him a Circle to lead. For that, he shodl take the Leadership feat.

15th level character ... we'll assume he (somehow) has enough charisma or whatever to offset the general penalties for being evil, aloof, and cruel to his underlings (as Thayan wizards generally are); thus, we'll assume a leadership score of 15.

He has a single 10th levl Cohort, and 23 followers (1 is third level, 2 are second, the other 20 are 1st) ... all of whom are warriors or commoners.

So. You tell me where the other Wizards of 9th+ level come from. Certainly not the Red Wizard PrC description!

I considered what he could do to the party with that kind of power. First of all, a caster level of 25 means his buffs would be literally untouchable by party dispels, and he could strip away their buffs with ease. He could open the combat by casting a Finger of Death Heightened to 20th level - instant death for one character (even the party barbarian couldn't make a Fort save with a DC in the high 30s-low 40s).

Um. Clue-by-four time.

Firt off, Finger of Death and "many buffs" aren't going to be in the same school of magic. Thus, he won't get the full caster level increase for both of them; the Red Wizard gets Specialist Spell Power, which only applies to their specialty school.

Second off, you can't heighten a spell to a level higher than you can actually cast. This, that Finger of Death isn't going ot be higher than an 8th level spell; the Spell Power-like benefits absolutely do not affect your number of spells per day! Nor what level of spell you can cast.

Furthermore, heightening anything to 20th level would take an Epic character, with a slew of feats, most of them epic:

Heighten Spell
Improved Heighten Spell
Increased Spell Capacity (10th)
Increased Spell Capacity (11th)
Increased Spell Capacity (12th)
Increased Spell Capacity (13th)
Increased Spell Capacity (14th)
Increased Spell Capacity (15th)
Increased Spell Capacity (16th)
Increased Spell Capacity (17th)
Increased Spell Capacity (18th)
Increased Spell Capacity (19th)
Increased Spell Capacity (20th)

For a straight wizard, those epic feats would take a minimum level of 36 ... with no Red Wizard levels at all! Add in 10 Red Wizard levels, and that means you have to be some 6-odd levels higher than that ...!

I don't care if you're burning the metamagic costs with Circle Magic ... the same limitation put on the Instant Metamagic ability of the Incantatrix: you have to have at least had the option to have prepared it yourself, to be able to cast it that way.

Given that there's basically no cost for using the Circle Leader ability, there's no reason that the Red Wizard wouldn't do it every day, so he's always running with that kind of power at his disposal. And as far as I can tell, there's absolutely nothing the party can do to take it away from him - it's not dispellable or anything like that.

Sure there's somethign they can do ... there's this 6th level spell, you see, called "antimagic field" ... run up with the fighter, and pound the snot out of the then-crippled wizard.

I would submit that this guy would cause major problems even for a 20th level party! He makes the 3.0 Archmage look like a Commoner. What was Wotc thinking?

I'm one of the GMs for an Epic arena, and the scenario you describe would never happen there ... even with start-at-25th-level Red Wizards. Heck, not even with a Wizard(10)/Red Wizard(10)/Archmage(5).

The simple reason being, noone is allowed to simply assume that the ability to lead a Circle of fellow red wizards automatically grants you a Circle to lead.

 

[Pax]

Am I missing something? How can a 15th level spellcaster Heighten a spell to 20th level? In order to do that the spellcaster would need improved spell capacity spell slots from 10th to 20th level (11 epic feats) and an Intelligence of 30.

Not to mention Improvd Heighten.

And for campaigns not using the ELH ... then, there's not such thing as a spell-slot above 9th. It's just that simple. ^_^