D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

[hawkeyefan]

I'm not saying they couldn't. I'm saying I don't feel its necessary... but if I was doing it... it'd be an online document so multiple sources... starter set, DMG, other DM's etc. Could all reference it without added page count, and without duplicaton, but there's this weird pushback in this thread by certain posters who are against online resources and using them to supplement your products claiming it has to be in the books... well again thats great and all but unless we are talking infinite page count and unlimited price point then concessions need to be made and for me just hollering add this, and this, and this without realistically addressing the issues that would arise is what's ridiculous.

Okay. I don’t think I have said that additional resources cannot be used. That doesn’t change my stance on the books. If the book (either the starter set or the DMG) introduces the idea of success with a setback, then they should absolutely provide guidance on what that means and examples to help people understand. Like, in the same book right after introducing the idea.

As for resources online… the DMG could lose the entire section on the cosmos and the planes. All of that stuff is online for free already. That’s a significant bunch of pages that seem to be wasted by these standards.

 

[Imaro]

Okay. I don’t think I have said that additional resources cannot be used. That doesn’t change my stance on the books. If the book (either the starter set or the DMG) introduces the idea of success with a setback, then they should absolutely provide guidance on what that means and examples to help people understand. Like, in the same book right after introducing the idea.

As for resources online… the DMG could lose the entire section on the cosmos and the planes. All of that stuff is online for free already. That’s a significant bunch of pages that seem to be wasted by these standards.

Well I think this is an outdated way of looking at the core rules of the game (and the dissemination of information to a younger generation), especially with WotC's investment in DnD Beyond. I think utilization of online resources is exactly why they purchased the platform and that they would be silly not to utilize it in situations like this. Are you really arguing it makes more sense to post the exact same list of examples in the starter sets, the DMG and the PHB as opposed to saying something along the lines of "for examples of setbacks and more to help you run the game visit www.WotCexamples.com" Not only are you saving real estate in your books, reducing repetition across your product lines... but you're also guiding them to your online presence... and that super helpful digital tool they probably want to utilize as a DM to help run their games.

EDIT: I also wonder if perhaps part of what should be taught to a beginning DM is how best to utilize the DnD Beyond tools to reference rules, homebrew, design encounters, and prep for/run their game?

EDIT 2: As an example does it matter how wonky CR is if you have a tool that you can just add monsters to and it calculates the CR for you?

 

[Oofta]

So if they couldn’t make space for examples of success with setback in the Essentials Kit… which is the kind of product where you feel it belongs since it’s useful to those learning to DM… then where else would it go?

In the DMG? Under Resolution and Consequences, Success at a Cost in Chapter 8 Running the Game. It gives examples of when people miss success by a small amount.

But people don't read the DMG so nobody knows about it.

 

[pointofyou]

In the DMG? Under Resolution and Consequences, Success at a Cost in Chapter 8 Running the Game. It gives examples of when people miss success by a small amount.

But people don't read the DMG so nobody knows about it.

Or people do read the DMG and think it's not enough.

 

[Oofta]

Or people do read the DMG and think it's not enough.

Can it ever be enough?

 

[pointofyou]

Can it ever be enough?

It can be better. They can write it with DMs new to the game more in mind. They can reorganize it so for instance guidance on running the game comes before guidance on making your setting. They can add more advice or reframe the advice already there to point at different ways to play the game.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Are you really arguing it makes more sense to post the exact same list of examples in the starter sets, the DMG and the PHB as opposed to saying something along the lines of "for examples of setbacks and more to help you run the game visit www.WotCexamples.com"

Where did I say that?

I think that wherever the concept of success with setback is introduced is where it should be explained and examples provided.

Not only are you saving real estate in your books, reducing repetition across your product lines... but you're also guiding them to your online presence... and that super helpful digital tool they probably want to utilize as a DM to help run their games.

I have no problem with online tools. But if they’re going to bother selling a book, I’d say it should be as complete as it can be, and not just point people to the online tools.

In the DMG? Under Resolution and Consequences, Success at a Cost in Chapter 8 Running the Game. It gives examples of when people miss success by a small amount.

But people don't read the DMG so nobody knows about it.

I’m very aware of that section. It’s a prime example of the kind of loose advice I think should be tightened up. It also doesn’t really line up well with the mention of success with setback as mentioned in the essentials kit. It’s more about throwing the player a bone if they miss a DC by a point or two.

 

[Imaro]

I’m very aware of that section. It’s a prime example of the kind of loose advice I think should be tightened up. It also doesn’t really line up well with the mention of success with setback as mentioned in the essentials kit. It’s more about throwing the player a bone if they miss a DC by a point or two.

So my impression of the progression of this point has been...
1. There's no guidance of adjudication...
This is proven false.

2. There's no examples to accompany that guidance on adjudication....
This is proven false.

3. That guidance is too much guidance and not enough RIGHT way it should be done and those examples aren't good enough (Though they are all clearly examples of success with a setback).... But we aren't advocating for a prescriptive DMG...
Wait what??

 

[hawkeyefan]

So my impression of the progression of this point has been...
1. There's no guidance of adjudication...
This is proven false.

2. There's no examples to accompany that guidance on adjudication....
This is proven false.

3. That guidance is too much guidance and not enough RIGHT way it should be done and those examples aren't good enough (Though they are all clearly examples of success with a setback).... But we aren't advocating for a prescriptive DMG...
Wait what??

No, your 1 and 2 are not claims that I made.

We were talking about the advice in the Essentials Kit to have a failed roll be success with a setback. Is that right?

Are examples in the Essentials Kit?

Do you think it’s a good idea to include examples along with a term in the text where the term is introduced?

That was my point. As near as I can tell, you think it’s a bad idea to include examples of a defined term because “setback” is a word 12 year olds should know… or because examples would use up too much space… or because that information could be provided online… or basically any other reason you can come up with.

Now, the example @Oofta gave of success with a complication that is in the DMG is a separate bit from the Essentials Kit. It does offer a couple examples of setbacks, and a kind of halfassed suggestion on when/how to use success with setback. It’s poorly presented and considering how many people who play D&D don’t appear to use it, I’d say it does a poor job.

So there were two separate points I was making. My reply to you was about your bizarre desire to not include examples of defined terms when they are defined. Mg reply to @Oofta was about criticizing that part of the DMG for being a sloppily presented half-measure.

 

[Zaukrie]

I think I first suggested setback examples.... Still astounded this is going on.... But the DNDbeyond idea is good, if they reference it in the starter set. Essentials came with free content, and that was a great idea they abandoned, alas. I think pointing people there is a good idea for stuff like examples.