D&D General Reification versus ludification in 5E/6E


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I think I had a minor epiphany.
Hey, if it works for you and settles your mind, great! (y)

I, however, will continue to think WotC is just lazy and dropped the ball by not justifying things in a stat block as to why they are different from what we expect to see due to the other (PC-side?) mechanics of the game.

To be clear, I have no qualm with them being different, just with them doing it without any apparent rhyme or reason than "because we say so".

TSR did this, but WotC moved away from it (at least in 5E), and shifting back at this point is not a good look IMO anyway.
 

WotC have a weird commitment about not change CR for old monster. So instead reduce most NPC's CR they boost their states to meet their monster peer. In one case like archmage wotc nerf it by made them cast Lv.9 version Cone of Cold instead of proper Lv.9 spells, due to slamming spells like Meteor swarm or Psychic scream being too powerful for a CR12 creature.

EDIT: But on the other hand, cast things like Time Stop is almost waste of time in most situation.
It's not so weird a commitment not to change the CR. They backed themselves into a corner with the backwards compatibility claim, so they literally couldn't change any of the CRs without blatantly breaking that claim. So instead they boosted the monsters in the new book, while claiming(somehow with a straight face), that the improved 5.5e versions are the exact same CR as the wet noodle versions.

It would have been better had they just been honest with us about the backwards compatibility claims and altered the CRs.
 

Yea, I agree with most of this. All of my play flows from the fiction.

Most of my critiques in this thread come from my own specific needs. I'm a low-prep, improv DM. Generating a monster stat block on the fly is fairly trivial (especially for something like a humanoid mook); what I'm looking for is the MM to provide me with some guidelines on things like "what sort of damage levels are relevant for monsters fighting 10th level PCs" or "what kind of bonuses would be useful for a humanoid soldier type?"
I'm more of a high-prep DM, meaning that I'm usually not referencing the books at the table for the most part because I've already prepped everything I want to use down to the monsters and spells involved in a separate document or spreadsheet and made some modifications as suits me anyways. So I look at these things as whether it makes my job easier or harder or neutral - most of this is neutral to me. But I've already got several monster books already that do just as good a job for me and are 5e ready. A neutral utility MM is not something I need to run out and buy. I find myself asking, what would make this particular Monster Manual useful to me, and right now it's probably for some of the new monsters, but not others.
 

That may be true for some folks (probably is), but I've always had a problem with those things. Since this entire thread is about personal preference in regards to these issues, I don't want to be lumped in with the supposed "nobody" that cared about these concerns prior to now.
There is a point of diminishing returns. It would be nice to have a customized stat block to account for each monster's nuances, but that becomes a nightmare for designers of giving you a broader spectrum vs. specialized stat blocks.

I think a reasonable compromise would be to have the "generic" Acolyte, Guard, etc. stat blocks, but also have a table with different species/races traits that can customize the base stat block further. I'm very disappointed the 2024 MM didn't do this rather than change types to justify keeping some stat blocks while discarding others.
 

I think I had a minor epiphany. The issue is abstraction vs concrete presentation in a statblock.

Take the NPC acolyte. Its supposed to represent a friendly village priest, a servant of a dark god, a drow warrior, an enlightened mystic, and probably a dozen other characters represented with minor divine magic access. Can the stat block represent them all? Well, yes but no. Yes is the broadest sense: they give you an AC, HP, attacks, and spells that pose a specific challenge level, but on a micro level fails to account for species, specific god worshipped, training, role, etc. If the village priest of Pelor teamed up with the enlightened mystic from the mountains and fought a tiefling servant of Nerull and his drow consort, they'd all be doing the same fricken thing to each other despite clearly representing four different people with wildly different backgrounds and abilities.

Because D&D doesn't want you to think of the stat block as a concrete list of what the NPC can or can't do. It represents a set of stats that can be used to represent them, but it's not the all-inclusive list of features we grew used to. Its abstract, designed to be explained any way that you see fit. And its done that way to allow them to be used and reused for a variety of things the DM would want. When you look at it from that lens, things start to make sense. The lack of species traits for NPCs. The lack of custom monster creation. The level of abstraction in monster stat-blocks. Its because WotC wants you to create the fiction first, the grab a stat block that "looks close enough" and use that to represent it if needed. The creature ISN'T the stat block. The stat block represents the creature if its necessary.

I will admit, its a very different look at D&D, but its not an inconsistent one. WotC doesn't care if you use the hobgoblin warrior to represent a human soldier, an orc mercenary, or even an undead knight. All you do is make a few cosmetic changes (such as the ones outlined in the DMG) and use the stat block. In that light, there is no reason to justify the longsword damage because that stat block can represent an multitude of different heavily armed warriors, hobgoblin and longsword are just the default names for them.

Ladies and gentlemen, disassociated mechanics is back. But only for NPCs. The complaint about 4e usually came down to how PCs had disasociated abilities (powers) that didn't make sense in the flow of the fiction. But nobody really complained about that for NPCs and monsters. Mostly, because those are defined by their opposition to PCs and thus only matter for the purposes of their role as combantants, helpers, or whatever. The old MM did this to a degree, and the new one has embraced it more fully.

PCs use concrete rules, mostly. Monsters use abstract rules. Each does it differently based on their role in the game. To them, the game rules do not simulate reality. They said as much in the DMG. The rules, the stat blocks, they aren't designed to simulate the world, only to give characters a way to interact with it. But its consistent through the game when you look for it. "Don't let your players argue physics to get out of a game rule." "Four different NPCs can all use the same stat block". "Don't allow PCs to game the economy". "You can reskin a hobgoblin to be anything you want." "Your PC can take any background and change the lore so that your noble actually represents a wealthy gambler."

Yes, that is going to be a rude shock for people who want very concrete rules. And that is a change (or at least a certainly an evolution) from older D&D (specifically 3e) where concrete rules applied across the whole game equally. And Its not going to be for everyone.
This right here is why I've never been able to accept the company line that this isn't a new edition. All the changes they did make, and what they add up to, IMO make this a different game with a different design philosophy, and one that is simply less fun for me to play. For those for whom that is not the case, I wish you good gaming with 5.5.
 

There is a point of diminishing returns. It would be nice to have a customized stat block to account for each monster's nuances, but that becomes a nightmare for designers of giving you a broader spectrum vs. specialized stat blocks.

I think a reasonable compromise would be to have the "generic" Acolyte, Guard, etc. stat blocks, but also have a table with different species/races traits that can customize the base stat block further. I'm very disappointed the 2024 MM didn't do this rather than change types to justify keeping some stat blocks while discarding others.
There is a point of diminishing returns. I just think WotC stopped well before it from my point of view.
 

Character hit points don't really change. They are a combination of physical, skill, luck, etc. from 1st level to 20th level.
Five hit points at first level means something entirely different from five hit points at 20th level. We accept the dissonance which hit points should inevitably evoke because we are all familiar with the way they work.

The damage caused by a longsword is already hugely variable: 1d8 has no meaning except in the context of the person who is hit. All hit point damage is similarly variable.

The thing which stays constant is the numerical range - 1d8 - but that variable has no meaning outside of the specific context to which it applies, and the effects of that variable are wildly different depending on the target to which they are applied.

Hence my original assertion that all of these arguments are circular - or perhaps tautological.
 
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Which just means their CR is set too high. Either that, or PCs have too many hit points. Probably both.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to just lower the CR?
Well, no, because the point of, say, the guard captain is to have a more challenging foe than a regular guard. Again, I could generate an NPC for that role, say a level 8 fighter (champion) and play through their turn just as I would a PC, and that option is there for those who want that level of equivalence between their creatures and characters. But I would rather just have a much simplified version that has similar damage and survivability in order to keep things moving.
 

This right here is why I've never been able to accept the company line that this isn't a new edition. All the changes they did make, and what they add up to, IMO make this a different game with a different design philosophy, and one that is simply less fun for me to play. For those for whom that is not the case, I wish you good gaming with 5.5.
It's an evolution of a philosophy that started much sooner. By your argument, 5e stopped being 5e sometime around 2020. The philosophy moved slowly across books like Eberron, Theros, and Tasha. It grew in MotM and Strixhaven. I would argue "5e" as it was originally envisioned only lasted five years, the second period of time was the move towards the 2024 books. Hell, Maxperson said MotM was a 2024 book published in 2022!

So, if it helps you sleep at night, it's a new edition. It's a new edition that started in 2020 though.
 

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