Reincarnation and Level Adjustments

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I think you have to wing it. Some of the published level adjustments (IE, hobgoblin) are really high for the benefits they give.

Keep in mind that the player got unlucky and died, then got lucky when he reincarnated. He's already lost a level by dying, maybe they should balance out.

Ken

 

[Cabral]

I suppose if one was going to give an LA for reincarnation then they should also get LA while they are polymorphed as well, it makes sense for the same reasons given after all

Not really, no. being able to cast the polymorph spell is factored into your estimated power level at that level. ... if you could cast it innately that would be different. Now if you were to try to make a polymorph spell permanent through permancy, there would be an XP penalty ... samething with reincarnation

 

[Scion]

Not really, no. being able to cast the polymorph spell is factored into your estimated power level at that level. ... if you could cast it innately that would be different. Now if you were to try to make a polymorph spell permanent through permancy, there would be an XP penalty ... samething with reincarnation

There are items that can give the effective ability for differing durations and there is polymorph any object which can be permanent in duration easily.

I would trade some money in for the equivalent of +7 LA any day.

So, obviously, if you are going to make one do it then both should as they both give similar benefits.. Actually, polymorph is even more abusive, so it should qualify even more so.

Then again, even alterself has a good duration and gives some impressive benefits, so it probably should to, given the same reasoning.

At some point a line has to be drawn. To draw it through one thing while ignoring another that is basically the same seems... odd..

 

[Thanee]

At some point a line has to be drawn.

The line is... stuff that is permanent and cannot be dispelled or taken away (in the sense of an item).

Bye
Thanee

 

[IanB]

Another useful thing might be to adopt the Unearthed Arcana rules about 'buying off' level adjustments.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

 

[Scion]

The line is... stuff that is permanent and cannot be dispelled or taken away (in the sense of an item).

Well, since that line is completely arbitrary and subject to change at any time I would have to say that your line doesnt make any sense.

After all, being whatever race they were before the reincarnate was effectively within that line, but even it changed.

Therefore, on one side of your line we have nothing and on the other side everything as everything can be taken away somehow.

perhaps you would like to make a better line?

 

[IanB]

Scion, I think you're missing the point of LA. It is there to let the DM gauge the strength of a character, provide appropriate challenges, and determine the appropriate XP reward for a given challenge. They're absolutely necessary for the default XP system to work with races more powerful than normal.

If you're not going to apply LAs upon reincarnation, you shouldn't apply them at character creation either. Otherwise reincarnation becomes a big stupid rules hole. Frankly I think racial hit dice should be modified as well.

 

[Scion]

Scion, I think you're missing the point of LA. It is there to let the DM gauge the strength of a character, provide appropriate challenges, and determine the appropriate XP reward for a given challenge. They're absolutely necessary for the default XP system to work with races more powerful than normal.

If you're not going to apply LAs upon reincarnation, you shouldn't apply them at character creation either. Otherwise reincarnation becomes a big stupid rules hole. Frankly I think racial hit dice should be modified as well.

I only said that if you apply it to one you should apply it to the other, for the exact same reasons either way. Consistancy.

After all, it is possible to be walking around in the hobgoblin form permanently through several different means:
1) born that way and havent had anything change it yet
2) reincarnated that way and havent had anything change it yet
3) polymorphed any object into that form with permanent duration and havent had anything change it yet
and more..

In all of these you get the stat boosts and out of the three I think the one that is least likely to deserve the LA is the first.. and yet it is the one that does by the rules while the others do not (because the rules are silent on the issue, one could argue that the silence means the other way, but then again both of the last two should be treated the same.. and then moving from there polymorph should be worked similarly, even if it is of a shorter duration.. for that fight you are in that form and so inherantly have those bonuses).

All in all, I think it'd be easiest if the whole LA system was redone and the polymorph mechanics were redone.. it would solve many of the problems at their base rather than working on symptoms.

So no, I understand the LA just fine. But tell me, if a character is permanently polymorphed into a creature with a +30 LA (just using an extreme for the sake of the arguement) why should they not be stuck with it? But then, they probably arent getting the full benefit, so why not some fraction of it? Why none in one case and all in another even when they have exactly the same benefits either way?

Inconsistancy is bad, especially in a case such as this, since if it is done with that inconsistancy it is a 'stupid rules whole' at that point either way.. whether to the benefit or detriment of the player.

 

[Cabral]

actually in a polymorph you get typical stats for the race ... so if you rolled really well, polymorphing into a bugbear may lower your stats.

Also, polymorphing into a creature is not the same as being that creature (even if polymorph is made permanent...polymorph into a drow and so Spell Resistance, for example.

The polymorph spell is balanced so that it is balanced with other spells you could cast at that level. It is a class ability granted by appropriate classes.

I'm sorry, but your comparrison is not valid.

 

[Scion]

I'm sorry, but your comparrison is not valid.

you will need some valid counterarguements to make that claim valid.

As of yet you havent put any forward. The counterexamples to your most recent comments are already here in this thread, but to restate:

There can easily be creatures with higher stats than your own, a reincarnated creature does not have all of the abilities either so using that as a point for polymorph to not gain the LA would give the same point to reincarnate, and it is unimportant about it being a class ability of another class to grant it.. as I have said it can come from items and it can even be permanent.. plus, it is a boon that outstrips the cost by far, and since the bonuses will typically only matter in combat and both will have it then if one gets a penalty for the bonus then they both should, to do otherwise is horribly inconsistant. Especially in the face of always on methods.


So, if you want to apply a penalty to one then you must apply it to the other, to do otherwise is highly inconsistant and blatantly contradictory.