Pathfinder 2E Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

[BryonD]

I don’t get it? PF2 == 4e?

No, not really.
I think there are some points that can be made in that two out of two times the very sim based 3X core was replaced by a very tightly math/balance gamist core.
But there are still so many differences that I don't think it makes sense to equate the two games.

There is a parallel issue however in regard to fanbase reactions, market share trajectory, how data is perceived (and accepted or rejected), etc. None of that really has anything to do with the game itself at all. It is purely a fan/detractor cognitive bias thing.

And it is much smaller than in 4E (shorter time frames and smaller numbers in general). But it is a nice fractal.

 

[BryonD]

I was being a bit more pointed. Having had more than a few... erm... discussions with @BryonD in the 4e days, I was commenting that his comments now eerily echo his comments then.

I only take issue with the word "his".
Not that mine are not. They are. But the entire call and response is a recycle.

 

[Jester David]

I don’t get it? PF2 == 4e?

From a design perspective? More than some PF fans like to admit. It gave me most of the same feels as reading 4e back in the day.
There are totally differences, but considering PF1 was done as pushback for 4e it's surprising how much of the design ended up going in the same direction.

From a sales perspective? Well... that's more complicated.
It's pretty clear PF2 isn't doing as well as PF1 did in it's first couple year, and not as many groups converted as Paizo might have liked. Like less than 50% if judging by Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. Quite a few people have stuck with PF1. Paizo staff are being upbeat and saying "people are just finishing that final 1st edition campaign" but I have my doubts: they had a year to do that before release.

And I haven't seen a single big Kickstarter for a 3rd Party PF release. Necromancer games did a number of big PF1 books and had a great relationship with Paizo, doing Tome of Horrors Complete for Pathinder. They had a 5th Edition product on Kickstarter before WotC released the DMG and the PDF in the fan's hands by January.

But even with half it's previous audience, Pathfinder 2 is still a success as far as roleplaying games are concerned, and probably comfortably making Paizo money. Which is a sad statement on the state of the industry and what other game lines are doing in terms of sales.

 

[Shroomy]

FYI, the 5e PHB is now at #23 on Amazon because of a massive sale.

EDIT: The book is now at #12, and this is after the price went from ~18 dollars to $27.95

 

[BryonD]

There are totally differences, but considering PF1 was done as pushback for 4e it's surprising how much of the design ended up going in the same direction.

I truly believe this is a "squeaky wheel" thing. I don't for a second dispute that a lot of people complained about the min/max aspects of 3X/PF. But I am convinced that the people complaining about that were a much smaller portion of the fanbase than those who just quietly worked with the system and had a blast. But if you are a designer who (A) spends a DECADE hearing those complaints and (B) has to anticipate these items every single time you design something new, then you are going to be very strongly influenced by this when you start over.

But all the fans who didn't have issues didn't make their satisfaction well known. So again, not at all denying the issues, but I think one side received way too much response.

So it goes. I don't know how you can realistically avoid this.

Paizo staff are being upbeat and saying "people are just finishing that final 1st edition campaign" but I have my doubts: they had a year to do that before release.

Yeah. This also meets the recycled talking points from the 4E era list. 4E was going to be huge "just as soon as everyone finished their current campaign." It didn't happen. When 5E came out, WotC didn't have to wait for people to finish their PF campaigns. (I'm sure someone will insist their personal group was the meaningful exception). 5E was gangbusters and a bunch of PF players converted or just started new campaigns right away.

The insane (awesome but insane) steady growth of 5E not withstanding, RPGs don't wait their turn and then start growing. They catch an audience and hang on to their share until they start to slide.

But even with half it's previous audience, Pathfinder 2 is still a success as far as roleplaying games are concerned, and probably comfortably making Paizo money.

Probably true. For now. But we still don't know what is meaningful there. And we can't. There isn't any reason to assume that PF2E is doing much better than PF was doing when IT was the #2 RPG. And it wasn't doing nearly well enough. And I'm sure Paizo dumped a chunk of upfront investment in the development of PF2E.

They sold a ton (compared to any other non 5E game) at release. And they are still well ahead of that. But on the other hand, they are well behind numerous OLD 5E modules. Honestly, if they are truly happy with this, then THAT is a bad sign for the industry. (And we know the industry is growing)

 

[BryonD]

I truly believe this is a "squeaky wheel" thing.

Quick clarification: I still think that there are a lot more differences. Jester David's comment struck me as keying into the heavy gamist play and balance focus. I'm not even sure he meant that. But that is where my mind went.

 

[Parmandur]

But on the other hand, they are well behind numerous OLD 5E modules

The old 5E modules are pretty good, though, and are now classic.

 

[BryonD]

The old 5E modules are pretty good, though, and are now classic.

Noted.
Do you think Paizo's goals were something to the effect of: within 6 months be selling less Core books than WotC sells modules from 2014?

 

[Markh3rd]

What are PF2 groups playing? Adventure paths? A module (Fall of plaguestone, idk if they released anymore after that one)? Home brew? Converted stuff?

 

[teitan]

What are PF2 groups playing? Adventure paths? A module (Fall of plaguestone, idk if they released anymore after that one)? Home brew? Converted stuff?

I am betting, much like D&D groups, most are playing Homebrew. I must be old because I remember when adventures were an afterthought to most groups following 2e unless they involved someone like Vecna or were truly special like Night Below. Just always seems an odd question to me in this day & age of Adventure Paths and more adventures coming out than support products.