D&D General Reminder: Spellfire can come out of any body part…

[Steampunkette]

Okay, just playing devil's advocate here, but traditionally, the phrase "bared breast" is not a sexist reference to female breasts, but historically meant that anyone had pulled aside their armor or clothing for any reason to reveal their chest.
Think of any scene in a movie or book where someone points a sword at another person, threatening to kill them, and the other person simply pulls open their shirt to expose their heart and says, "Do it."
Self-admitted "perv"or not, I highly doubt that Mr. Greenwood was choosing that particular moment in the fight to suddenly have his main character giggle, lift her shirt and go, "Look! Boob missiles!" rather than the character realizing that raw magic was pouring out of her flesh wherever it was exposed and simply opening her tunic to expose more of it.
Archaically, the word "breast" meant any reference to the chest area, whether male or female, human or animal.
But in modern society, no one uses the word breast in that way anymore unless buying poultry at the grocery store, and it has come to largely be thought of only as a reference to female genitalia. Which is why if the character had been male no one would have thought twice about it, realizing that the phrase was being used in the traditional sense, and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

... I have some information for you on where genitalia are located and it has nothing to do with chests.

Also, the devil never needs an advocate outside of picking popes. And only because the church refuses to be antagonistic toward their own people for fear of becoming a satan, themselves.

Also also... Ed Greenwood is kind of a perv. Even in his defense of trans people he wanted to make it clear that there are times where having sex in games and storytelling is important and there is, honestly, -never- a time when sex in games and storytelling is important. There's only times you want to include it and make up elaborate reasons to support it being present rather than just admitting you want it to be in there.

Even his wife acknowledges it. Multiple times.

This ain't the hill to die on!

 

[Alzrius]

I like to imagine the scene as her Belly Button becoming a Lazer of Death.

You mean like this guy?

 

[Seramus]

You mean like this guy?

 

[Mad_Jack]

This ain't the hill to die on!

And yet it seems to be the hill you're crucifying me on for having made a minor point about the use of the English language...

 

[DarkCrisis]

"As I have often said, I am a biological determinist, and there is no question that male and female brains are different. It is apparent to me that by and large females do not derive the same inner satisfaction from playing games as a hobby that males do. It isn't that females can't play games well, it is just that it isn't a compelling activity to them as is the case for males."
Gary Gygax

TSR - Q&A with Gary Gygax

This is the multi-year Q&A sessions held by D&D co-creator Gary Gygax here at EN World, beginning in 2002 and running up until his sad pasing in 2008. Gary's username in the thread below is Col_Pladoh, and his first post in this long thread is Post #39.

www.enworld.org

"A number of the chaps with families are bound to bring them next year so that thay can enjoy the charms of Lake Geneva, a true tourist trap with plenty to amuse women and children not enthralled by the lure of gaming."
Gary Gygax

TSR - Q&A with Gary Gygax

This is the multi-year Q&A sessions held by D&D co-creator Gary Gygax here at EN World, beginning in 2002 and running up until his sad pasing in 2008. Gary's username in the thread below is Col_Pladoh, and his first post in this long thread is Post #39.

www.enworld.org

"20 years? Way to short a period. The fantasy and SF pulp zines in the 1940s were rife with scantily clad women. Frazetta and Boris became famous for such work.

Now that's not politically correct. Tough It still is fun, and it sells."
Gary Gygax

For everyone who piles on Avalanche for their covers, please look

King Stannis, I'm not trying to start a flame war. I just take it very personally when someone implies that I'm a hypocrite. I've tried to live a life free of hypocrisy, so I'm a bit touchy about such loose accusations. However, it is not hypocrisy to be able to put an issue in context...

www.enworld.org

"Just so. The only limit I placed on female PCS was no Str above 18. In actual history female participation in what would be considered adventuring was virtually nil. i am always amused when history programs on the tube attempt Political Corectness by featuring the only examples of female duelists, pirates, warriors, etc. They represent less than one percent of the whole being considered, and featuring one-armed men in the same roles would be at least as meaningful historically. Frankly, not only did society generally prevent such participation, but I believe most women were generally not the least interested in engaging in such dangerous and questionable activities."
Gary Gygax

TSR - Q&A with Gary Gygax

This is the multi-year Q&A sessions held by D&D co-creator Gary Gygax here at EN World, beginning in 2002 and running up until his sad pasing in 2008. Gary's username in the thread below is Col_Pladoh, and his first post in this long thread is Post #39.

www.enworld.org

I can't stress enough that he said this stuff -here-. On ENWorld. Before it became against policy to say stuff like this.

Maybe he didn't walk around lamenting that women weren't all Gor for him or treated women as stray dogs to be kicked...

But this is the Gygax... The person chiefly credited with creating our hobby. Throwing out "Females" with the same sort of derogation as you might here on incel forums.

And it really feels like he'd misgender me in order to maintain his "Biological Determinism". And that -sucks-.

Gary Gygax didn’t write this book and was gone from TSR when it written.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

I've never read any of Ed's books, but this sounds exactly how I've imagined them.

 

[Argyle King]

Frazetta and Boris lamentation ties into that. The oversexualization and objectification of women as a thing that was really common in early D&D (and hasn't entirely faded out) didn't appear out of nowhere. The guys in charge put it there.

The above said... I am glad you brought that to my attention, Blue. I'd only really seen Ed's pervy takes on things, really. So it's nice to know that he pushed back on that controversy!

I suppose so.

Personally, I see those as different things. Evaluating whether or not I find something (or someone) visually appealing or titillating is (I believe) different than what appears to be disparaging commentary about an entire sex's mental capacity for a task.

It could be that those things are more-linked in the case of E.G.G.

But I believe that Ed Greenwood is a different human being than Gary Gygax. As such, I'm still not entirely sure that I'm comprehending how whatever Gygax's views may have been apply to Ed Greenwood's fondness for Super Sayan mammary glands.

 

[Steampunkette]

I suppose so.

Personally, I see those as different things. Evaluating whether or not I find something (or someone) visually appealing or titillating is (I believe) different than what appears to be disparaging commentary about an entire sex's mental capacity for a task.

It could be that those things are more-linked in the case of E.G.G.

But I believe that Ed Greenwood is a different human being than Gary Gygax. As such, I'm still not entirely sure that I'm comprehending how whatever Gygax's views may have been apply to Ed Greenwood's fondness for Super Sayan mammary glands.

Gary Gygax didn’t write this book and was gone from TSR when it written.

Read the first line, here:

The more I read about the earliest creators of D&D and their attitudes well into the 2000s towards... literally any minority group...

The more I realize they'd have hated me for existing in their spaces and for all the kindness they might smear over that hatred in favor of the illusion that everyone is equal at their table it just makes me super uncomfortable.

Thank the universe for EN World and other spaces that actively push back against bigotry and do not tolerate it.

The post about Gygax in particular was in response to you, DarkCrisis, saying that it wouldn't be appropriate to call it hateful.

Because of the first line in my post, here, where I mention the earliest creators of D&D and their attitudes.

That is the context of bringing Gygax into the discussion. It's also part of why I linked specifically back to the Frazetta thing to show that Greenwood and Gygax both brought the oversexualization/objectification of women into D&D early on. Not that it was one or the other.

Please do not try and reframe my statement about "The earliest creators of D&D" as believing Gygax wrote this book.

Anyway. Yes. They're both different people. And they both brought problems into D&D from the start. That was my point. At least Ed Greenwood probably wouldn't misgender me.

 

[David Howery]

Okay, just playing devil's advocate here, but traditionally, the phrase "bared breast" is not a sexist reference to female breasts, but historically meant that anyone had pulled aside their armor or clothing for any reason to reveal their chest.

it's been decades since I read the book, but yeah, that's how I understood it to mean too. Even so, having a scene where a teenage girl rips her shirt open in the middle of a battle is rather cringeworthy...

 

[aco175]

I believe leakage is listed as one of the possible side effects when you first start taking Spellfire.