Remove Expected Wealth Levels

[Hassassin]

As for Hassassin's comment about "not doing damage", that's irrelevant. The hit points of the monster at the point the PCs DO interact with it is all that matters. I can as easily decide that ahead of time as not. It COULD be a function of the amount of rounds that goes by before they get involved, but the difference in my case was pretty trivial. If it matters much then just apply an adjustment for however much damage the NPCs would have done.

I think I misunderstood the scenario. If the damage happened before the encounter, of course I wouldn't play through the earlier encounter the monster had, just decide how many hit points it's lacking. I thought the NPCs were a part of the encounter, so the PCs could interact with them - rally, heal, defend etc.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, this is pretty much how I would remove magic items from the math. You just change the monster numbers around so that a previously CR/level 9 monster is now CR/level 12 (and is now a standard encounter for a level 12 party with no magic items) and a previously CR/level 12 monster is now CR/level 15 (and is now a standard encounter for a level 12 party with +3 magic items).

I think the way to get around the "level" problem is to just not use the term "level" when talking about monsters - maybe go back to the CR of 3e. So, you can have a monster with 40 hit dice, or a CR 40 monster, but there is no such thing as a "level" 40 monster. NPCs who might have "levels" are capped to the same limits as the PCs.

As for the problem of monsters you cannot fight without magic gear, at least there will only be a handful, and only at the highest levels of the game: the demon lords and archdevils and demigods for which it would make sense to most people that you need powerful magic items to take on.

I guess I'm not sure what the real problem would be. 4e in effect already works as you guys are suggesting. A monster that is an actual challenge is 3-5 levels higher than the PCs, and monster levels have no hard cap. Bahamut is what, 37th level? I haven't heard anyone complaining about that. Pretty much all epic capstone bad guys worth anything are over level 30. Yet no monsters have magic gear in 4e by default, and if they do have some they don't get numeric benefits from it unless it is WAY above their level.

I'd also note that the 4e monster 'level math' is not all that tight to start with. In fact there is no fixed rule about monster powers at all. They aren't factored in to the monster's level at all (or vice versa) beyond a general advice on damage output. If you slap a theme on a monster, it gains some power but there's no 'level adjustment', and likewise if you were to slap a 4e magic item on to a monster, it wouldn't rate an increase in level. The details of monster powers CAN make a rather large difference in their threat potential, but not in a very predictable way. Monsters have only a certain number of actions they're going to take, and the standard hit points and defenses already pretty well guarantee they'll fall within a range of rounds. There's just not that much added value in doing these kinds of little tweaks. Honestly it is not really worth doing level adjustment for PCs either.

Now, if items were a bunch more powerful than they are now, then it might matter. As it stands, with items roughly on par with 4e items, it just isn't super important.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think I misunderstood the scenario. If the damage happened before the encounter, of course I wouldn't play through the earlier encounter the monster had, just decide how many hit points it's lacking. I thought the NPCs were a part of the encounter, so the PCs could interact with them - rally, heal, defend etc.

Well, even if it nominally happens 'during' the encounter it isn't that important. OK, in theory the monster starts at say 100 hp. If the NPCs are going to do maybe say 20 damage during the fight, set the monster's hp at 80 and don't bother doing all that math at the table.

It is like the way I roll monsters initiative, stealth, and perception checks ahead of time and put them in my notes. It is just faster and it makes no difference if I rolled the number at the table or last week.

 

[Lanefan]

Well, even if it nominally happens 'during' the encounter it isn't that important. OK, in theory the monster starts at say 100 hp. If the NPCs are going to do maybe say 20 damage during the fight, set the monster's hp at 80 and don't bother doing all that math at the table.

Except as soon as the PCs try to interact with the ongoing fight in any way beyond simple observation you're going to need precise numbers. I don't have much problem with in effect calling the play-by-play of what the PCs see as I quickly roll some dice, even if I'm only going through the motions because the outcome (barring PC intervention) is predetermined.

It is like the way I roll monsters initiative, stealth, and perception checks ahead of time and put them in my notes. It is just faster and it makes no difference if I rolled the number at the table or last week.

I long since gave up doing stuff like this as no matter which monsters I pre-rolled for, those would be the monsters the party would never find.

Lanefan

 

[FireLance]

I guess I'm not sure what the real problem would be.

For me, there is no problem.

For some others, the idea that a 12th-level character needs +3 magic items to take on a 12th-level encounter is anathema.

That's why I've decided not to fight it. Just call a 9th-level encounter a 12th-level encounter, and say that a 12th-level character doesn't need magic items to take on a 12th-level encounter. Then, call a 12th-level encounter a 15th-level encounter and say that a 12th-level character needs +3 items to take on a 15th-level encounter.

Frankly, the math is exactly the same whether you call it a 9th-level encounter or a 12th-level encounter, but if switching the labels makes other people feel better, why not?

 

[Starfox]

I am with the OP here. Gold loses its luster when it merely becomes "the other xp". And that is what happens when you are expected to spend a certain amount of gold on your magic items. So this is intrinsically tied into the question of mandatory magic items. If you have an expected level of magic items, you also need an expected level or resources. Either the DM hands out magic items by fiat, or the players will need plentiful resources indeed.

With the logarithmic priced of 4E, this became painfully obvious. Epic heroes could bye a city with their loose change. At epic levels, one of my players spent about 100,000 gp (out of memory - it was a large amount, but small change at the level) creating a hot spring high in a cold mountain pass using a ritual. The other players woo'ed, but in the end it was jusg a gesture - the equivalent of a 1st level character buying a round at the inn. The gold needed to keep up in the epic arms race made world-changing expenses trivial. While this worked reasonably in this game, it makes certain settings impossible - those where PCs are expected to remain penniless even at high levels of power, and those where players start out as upper class with too much resources for their level.

 

[Libramarian]

Yeah, 1e has wealth by level expectations built into the system. The difference is it does it in a better way: xp for gp. Give PCs more gold, they level up faster. Be stingy, they level up slower. It's self-balancing. Much more elegant than a wealth by level chart.

The wealth by level chart is the sloppy, loosey goosey option by comparison.

 

[billd91]

Yeah, 1e has wealth by level expectations built into the system. The difference is it does it in a better way: xp for gp. Give PCs more gold, they level up faster. Be stingy, they level up slower. It's self-balancing. Much more elegant than a wealth by level chart.

The wealth by level chart is the sloppy, loosey goosey option by comparison.

It's also really, really not the same at all. The XP for GP element of 4e says absolutely nothing about how much equipment of significant value a PC is expected to have at any particular level, particularly since the training costs are sucking away that treasure at a prodigious rate and nobody was actually expected to be buying magical gear.

 

[Janaxstrus]

I like the expected wealth guidelines.

As a DM, I'm there to help make sure everyone has fun. None of the players I game with have a lot of fun if I'm constantly skimping on the treasure. I don't follow it to the letter, but I sure as heck use it when creating pcs above level 3 or 4.

I find it to be a valuable guide to keep my parties in line with the challenges I anticipate giving them.

One thing I would like to see, if the removal of the Wal-Mart Magic Store.
We still buy and sell magic items in shops in my campaign, however it's all random as to the items that are in those shops.
I tend to go by the stats of the city to dtermine how many shops, wizards, blacksmiths they may have, the max gp value for the town and then roll up some magic items from the MIC or DMG. Sometimes they find things they want (or I put something I want them to have) and sometimes they don't.

 

[Grydan]

I like the expected wealth guidelines.

As a DM, I'm there to help make sure everyone has fun. None of the players I game with have a lot of fun if I'm constantly skimping on the treasure. I don't follow it to the letter, but I sure as heck use it when creating pcs above level 3 or 4.

I find it to be a valuable guide to keep my parties in line with the challenges I anticipate giving them.

Here's the thing, though: an expected wealth level being met tells you literally nothing about what challenges a party is prepared to meet.

So the rules say that a character of level X should have a wealth of Y GP

Adam has, literally, Y GP.
Barbara has Y GP carefully divided into appropriate gear, weaponry, and other combat effective assets, with a small reserve of gold on hand for day-to-day use.
Charlie has Y GP invested entirely in turnips.

They all meet the wealth-by-level guidelines.

Adam is prepared for any challenge he can buy his way out of, but is unprepared for immediate action if he cannot shop first.
Barbara is prepared for any challenge she can fight her way out of, but doesn't have the liquid assets that Adam has.
Charlie is entirely unprepared for any challenge that cannot be overcome by having lots of turnips.

If the potency of necessary equipment a scales up at a predictable rate, then it's perfectly reasonable to have guidelines for what a higher level character should be given as starting equipment.

However, such rules need not in any way be tied to wealth.

I myself would prefer a solution where the rules for what equipment a character gets to start are viable at all levels.