Repulsive Armor vs Warding Blades

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Firstly, before we get bogged down by another terminology debate, you're referring to Opportunity Actions as Immediate Interrupts. That's obviously confusing, although it doesn't affect the outcome of your example, so I won't mention it further.

Opportunity Actions resolve before the triggering event; so what keterys is refering to is that when an enemy other than Warding Blade's primary target enters an adjacent square, the Opportunity Action resolves before the move. Since that is the case, if you don't have a reach weapon and if the enemy came from a non-adjacent square, then, when the Opportunity Action resolves, the enemy is still out of reach. Therefore, if you don't have a reach weapon, you cannot take the Opportiny Action.

Of course, you can take the Opportunity Action if the enemy hits/misses you, so even by RAW it's not entirely worthless, though keterys may well be right in assuming that RAI is that you get a chance to hit him even without a reach weapon. On the other hand, the wording of the power even mentions reach, so you'd hope they considered this...

I'm really confused now. For Warding Blade or Repulsive Armor's triggers to happen, the enemy has to enter an adjacent square. Okay, so its entered an adjacent square - both triggers go off. In order of precedence, the interrupt occurs first, then the reaction second, if I've got this stuff right. So you get your Opportunity Action from Wardring Blade first, then Repulsive Armor's Reaction finishes - and pushes the enemy 1 square away. Where is the need for reach?

Thanks.

 

[eamon]

I'm really confused now. For Warding Blade or Repulsive Armor's triggers to happen, the enemy has to enter an adjacent square. Okay, so its entered an adjacent square - both triggers go off. In order of precedence, the interrupt occurs first, then the reaction second, if I've got this stuff right. So you get your Opportunity Action from Wardring Blade first, then Repulsive Armor's Reaction finishes - and pushes the enemy 1 square away. Where is the need for reach?

Interrupting actions are resolved, then the triggering event is resolved, then the reactions are resolved.

That means that when the Opportunity Action's attack is resolved, the triggering creature has not yet moved.

 

[keterys]

Which is why, for example, a fighter's opportunity attack can prevent a creature from getting to move away from him at all.

The 'reach' referred to in Warding Blades is only in reference to the enemy attacking you, so I'm not inclined to think they realized that the OA would trigger before the movement occurred. That's a common mistake.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Which is why, for example, a fighter's opportunity attack can prevent a creature from getting to move away from him at all.

The 'reach' referred to in Warding Blades is only in reference to the enemy attacking you, so I'm not inclined to think they realized that the OA would trigger before the movement occurred. That's a common mistake.

You may be right, but by RAW you would need a reach weapon in ANY case where you are OAing someone moving in from a non-adjacent square, so if you go by the letter of the rules you'd need a reach weapon here IF they didn't start adjacent. RAI we can't determine. It may be that the designers wanted this to work better with pole arms for instance or they may not even have considered pole arms and assumed it would only be useful when the enemy started adjacent to you.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

You may be right, but by RAW you would need a reach weapon in ANY case where you are OAing someone moving in from a non-adjacent square, so if you go by the letter of the rules you'd need a reach weapon here IF they didn't start adjacent. RAI we can't determine. It may be that the designers wanted this to work better with pole arms for instance or they may not even have considered pole arms and assumed it would only be useful when the enemy started adjacent to you.

Label me "dense" but I still don't get this - the interrupt trigger doesn't go off UNTIL they have entered an adjacent square. Why would you need reach for an enemy that has entered an adjacent square? They are in the adjacent square when the OA resolves, why would you need reach? Then the reaction resolves and kicks them back one square.

I guess its because I'm new here, but I just don't see the trigger going off while they are still more than 1 square away... It simply *can't*, if I'm reading this right...

From the compendium:
"Until the end of your next turn, if any enemy other than the target enters a square adjacent to you, or hits or misses you from a square within your reach, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an opportunity action"

Going by some of the arguments here, if I didn't have Repulsive armor up, I'd still have to have reach to do the OA from Warding Blade.

Sorry, and I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I don't get that at all.

Just curious, are these posters getting hung up on this part; "or hits or misses you from a square within your reach"? If so, why? It seems to me that part would only kick in if you did have extended reach or a reach weapon. If not, then it doesn't apply.

Thanks all.

 

[keterys]

As written, it is 100% clear that you need a reach weapon to take an opportunity attack on someone who starts 2 squares away and enters an adjacent square. Your DM may be more lenient at their option. (I would be, I like things working intuitively)

Now, if someone is just shifting around you, going from an adjacent square to another adjacent square, you can make the attack.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Label me "dense" but I still don't get this - the interrupt trigger doesn't go off UNTIL they have entered an adjacent square. Why would you need reach for an enemy that has entered an adjacent square? They are in the adjacent square when the OA resolves, why would you need reach? Then the reaction resolves and kicks them back one square.

No, interrupting actions happen BEFORE the resolution of the action they break into. If an enemy provokes an OA from you by moving you attack him BEFORE he enters the square, just like if he provoked an OA with a ranged attack you would resolve the OA before the ranged attack was resolved. This is the nut of it. The OA from Warding Blades happens when someone moves into an adjacent square, but its resolved before the move and so if they are coming from a non-adjacent square then you need reach to OA them.

The reason normal OAs work this way is pretty easy to see. An OA should happen when someone runs away from you and thus you have to be hitting them BEFORE they get away. Likewise you don't OA enemies when they approach to engage you, so by having the OA trigger before the move that eventuality is taken care of as well (though the definition of valid OA targets already deals with this part of it).

From the compendium:
"Until the end of your next turn, if any enemy other than the target enters a square adjacent to you, or hits or misses you from a square within your reach, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an opportunity action"

The question to ask ourselves is was the text you quote above intended to create a special kind of OA opportunity that works differently from the normal one? In other words this different OA from Warding Blades would have to resolve AFTER the target has moved adjacent. There are various ways to look at it.

They could have written it as an Immediate Reaction, which would have done exactly that. You only get one of those per round, so we could also argue they wanted it to be usable more often than once a round and so made it an OA.

We could also ask under what interpretations Warding Blades seems to do something useful. By the standard OA definition its only useful to a pole arm user via the movement clause (others would get an OA anyway). Any PC will gain from the OA if hit or missed part though. So we COULD conclude its of some use to non-polearm users and effectively gives a polearm user threatening reach for a round, which is pretty darn nice. Obviously if you assume its allowing anyone to make an OA when someone moves adjacent its effectively giving non-polearm users threatening reach as well.

I don't think it breaks the game to read it either way. The weaker interpretation is still just as good for polearm users as the stronger one. The stronger one is pretty good but not way out of line. It would be the only way I know of to get this kind of effect, but it will only come in handy once in a while.

 

[eamon]

Label me "dense" but I still don't get this - the interrupt trigger doesn't go off UNTIL they have entered an adjacent square. [...]

No, interrupting actions happen BEFORE the resolution of the action they break into. If an enemy provokes an OA from you by moving you attack him BEFORE he enters the square, just like if he provoked an OA with a ranged attack you would resolve the OA before the ranged attack was resolved. This is the nut of it. The OA from Warding Blades happens when someone moves into an adjacent square, but its resolved before the move and so if they are coming from a non-adjacent square then you need reach to OA them.

What AbdulAlhazred says!

There's a very similar situation when a player uses polearm gamble. The PHB FAQ describes that thusly:

26. Where is the target of your attack when you make an opportunity attack because of Polearm Gamble?

An opportunity attack interrupts the action that triggers it, so when you make the opportunity attack, the target is in the square it's leaving, assuming that square is within your melee reach.
​

...and exactly the same situation arises with warding blades. An opportunity action interrupts the action that triggers it, so when you make the melee basic attack, the target is in the square it's leaving, assuming that square is within you melee reach.

Whether that rules interpretation is intentional, I don't dare to say. As a player, I think I'd assume it's intentional, though as a DM, if a player is excited about the power and assumes it works differently, I probably wouldn't burst his bubble ;-). I think the power's balance is OK either way.

Incidentally, that link on the word "interrupt" is in the original FAQ (it links to the immediate action section) - which is somewhat apropos to the subject of the suitability and usage of the word "interrupt". Even WotC doesn't bother cleanly distinguishing the concepts, apparently ;-).

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

I respectfully disagree.

The key to Warding Blade is the trigger in the description. The trigger is not when an enemy moves away, moves towards, moves vertically or leaves a square, threatened or otherwise. (however, if it leaves a threatened square, adjacent, then you would of course, get a normal OA - no disagreement there).

The trigger is when an enemy moves *into* an adjacent square. Period.

I can't see any difference if the enemy is 2 squares away and moves into an adjacent square or an enemy is 10 squares away and moves into an adjacent square. The trigger, according to Warding Blades description, is when it enters the adjacent square.

I read moving or entering into an adjacent square as once it breaks the plane, like in football. It doesn't have to completely set down in the square.

Once it breaks the plane of the adjacent square, for all intents and purposes it is in the adjacent square, so the trigger from Warding Blade goes off, is resolved, then it would set down in the square. Unless you did have Repulsive armor up, then its reaction would kick it back one square.

From CS:

Subject
---------------------------------------------------------------
Warding Blades

Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Support Agent) - 12/16/2009 02:02 PM
Hello Ronald,=20

Yes, you are correct. Please let me know if you need anymore help!

<as-html><p>We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are provi=
ding you. <a href=3D"http://deploy.ztelligence.com/start/index.jsp?PIN=3D=
15TTLS9M6TYC2"> Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire</a>.<=
br>
<br>
To login to your account, or update your question please <a href=3D"http:=
//wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/myovr.php">click h=
ere</a>.
<br>
<br>=20

Jamie<br>
Online Response Crew<br>
Wizards of the Coast<br>
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)<br>
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)<br>
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST<br>
Saturday-Sunday 10am-4pm PST / 1pm-7pm EST</p>
</as-html>

Auto-Response - 12/16/2009 01:43 PM
Your message has NOT been submitted yet.

To receive immediate help, please check out the answer(s) listed below. I=
f there are no answers listed, or the suggested answers do not help you, =
please click the "Send Email" button below, if available.


Customer (Ronald Hall) - 12/16/2009 01:43 PM
Hi! Thanks for such a great product (D&D)!

My question concerns the Avenger power, Warding Blade.=20

Consider this scenario:

I have 3 adjacent foes, 1 is my Oath of Enmity target. I use Warding
Blade - I push enemy A two squares away. I then push enemy B two squares =
away. I keep my OOE target adjacent to me.

Before the end of my next turn, Enemy A moves back into an adjacent=20
square. I get an Opportunity attack against him, according to the Warding=
Blade description. Now, Enemy B moves back into an adjacent square (all =
on the same turn). Warding Blade's description say "any" enemy that moves=
into an adjacent square, so do I get an Opportunity attack against him a=
s well?

Thanks much!

[---001:002150:12178---]


They make no mention of "reach" in their reply.

Thanks.

 

[keterys]

Correct. Now make your opportunity attack against the target that is 2 squares away. If you don't have reach, it doesn't work very well.

But you still get to make it.