Repulsive Armor vs Warding Blades

Here's the information missing from Warding Blade:

'Until the end of next turn, if any enemy other than the target enters a square adjacent to you or hits or misses you from a square within your reach, you can make a melee basic attack against them as an opportunity action.'

First: it's not technically an Opportunity attack (so no, it doesn't stop an opponent if you have Combat Superiority from the Fighter class)

Second: The point of the power is to dissuade enemies from coming to attack you, which is great for a Retribution Avenger. So, while it only attacks them for coming close if you have a reach weapon, what -does- work is the fact that you can make attacks against them if they -hit or miss- you.

So, in the case mentioned, it still works fine; the enemy -attacks you- and you get your opportunity action from his hit or miss.

What makes this truly interesting is that you know if he hits or misses before you decide to make the action. Let's say, for instance, you're MC'd into Druid, and you Wildshape after attacking with Warding Blades. Then, you have Savage Rend available. Bam, the guy hits you, and he's a brute so you know it'll hurt badly. This power lets you MBA, which allows you to Savage Rend. Savage Rend pushes him a square away.

Then, you re-resolve his attack... seems you're out of his reach now. His attack becomes invalidated and you act as if it never happened; with the exception that you did Savage Rend damage to him and he's not where he planned to be.

Another example is if you have something that can knock them prone with an attack. You knock them prone, which gives them a penalty to their attack, which may turn their hit into a miss.

Interrupts (of which opportunity actions follow) can invalidate actions simply by changing the combat math, or by making the action impossible. They're triggered -by- the action, but can completely undo the results. That's why they're so powerful, and why immediate interrupts are only once per round.
 

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Okay, I'll go with this...

Please post here, the exact question that you think would resolve this question with CS.

I'll cut and paste it in its entirety and submit it to them.

Thanks.
 

"Let's say I have an Avenger who has the power Warding Blade (PHB2), and Repulsion Armor (Adventurer's Vault). Both powers are active.

An enemy moves adjacent to me, but has not yet taken his standard action. Warding Blade allows me a basic attack as an opportunity action against the enemy in respose to moving adjacent to me, and Repulsion Armor allows me to push it a square as an immediate reaction to the movement.

I do not have a reach weapon.

Can I use the Warding Blade attack against that enemy as a response to his movement even though I do not have a reach weapon or do I need a reach weapon to attack it before it enters the square? If I can do so, why is that?

Is there a way that I can use Warding Blade -and- Repulsion Armor as a reaction to the same enemy's movement?"
 

I'm not even sure there's a need to bring Repulsion Armor into it. The real question is very simple.

"Since Warding Blade is allowing an OA against an enemy when he moves adjacent to my character from a non-adjacent square and OAs happen before movement, do I need a reach weapon to take this OA or is Warding Blade an exception to the normal rules for OAs?"

You need to keep things short and highly focused with CS. Don't bring multiple issues into it unless you really have to. They are MUCH better at answering the most direct questions. They tend to confused otherwise and say silly things or just miss the crux of the issue in the details.
 

"Since Warding Blade is allowing an OA against an enemy when he moves adjacent to my character from a non-adjacent square and OAs happen before movement, do I need a reach weapon to take this OA or is Warding Blade an exception to the normal rules for OAs?"
Sounds good to me. If you don't want to presume knowledge of the normal OA rules, you could alternatively just ask: "If a fullblade-wielding avenger has used Warding blade and an enemy moves adjacent from a non-adjacent square, where is that enemy at the moment that Warding Blade's Opportunity Action is resolved - and can the fullblade-wielding avenger hit him?"
 

A fullblade-wielding avenger has used Warding Blade. An enemy attempts to move adjacent from a non-adjacent square.

Does the Opportunity Action provided by Warding Blade interrupt the movement, so that the enemy is not yet in reach, or does it happen after the enemy has finished moving adjacent?

If that enemy were instead adjacent to the avenger and made a melee attack on the avenger, would the Opportunity Action provided by Warding Blade interrupt the attack, potentially killing the enemy before the attack is resolved, or does it happen after the enemy has fully resolved the attack?
 

Okay, I got a couple of replies from CS. Note though, they aren't to the excellent questions that the group here posted, but rather from the questions I had already asked. The total length is rather long. I'm going to post what I think is the pertinent parts, but if anyone wants the complete e-mails in their entirety, just let me know and I'll post them asap.

Remember, I asked these questions before everyone's excellent suggestions, so be kind. :)

Anyways, in the first e-mail, I asked this:

Customer (Ronald Hall) - 12/28/2009 06:56 PM
We're having a real problem with this at Enworld.

Look at FAQ #26:

26. Where is the target of your attack when you make an opportunity attac=
k because of Polearm Gamble?

"An opportunity attack interrupts the action that triggers it, so when yo=
u make the opportunity attack, the target is in the square it's leaving, =
assuming that square is within your melee reach."

Going by this, any power that says you get an Opportunity Attack when a c=
reature moves into, or enters an adjacent square, like Warding Blade for =
example, won't work unless you have extended reach. :(

Can you clear this up please? Thank you very much!

and they replied:

Response (Support Agent) - 12/29/2009 01:36 PM
Hello Ronald,=20

I need to address the question that you are asking as it is a specific si=
tuation with a specific power (Warding Blade), if there are other powers =
you want to ask about afterwards feel free I will address those powers as=
well. =20

As far as Warding blade is concerned until the end of your next turn, if =
any enemy other than the target enters a square adjacent to you or hits o=
r misses you from a square within your reach, you can make a melee basic =
attack against that enemy as an opportunity action. This is not triggere=
d by an attack of opportunity, but instead is a power that triggers an at=
tack of opportunity under certain circumstances. Keep in mind that you o=
nly gain one attack of opportunity on any specific creatures turn. So wh=
at this means is that you have options as to how to take your attacks of =
opportunity, should you use the Warding blade you would gain an attack wi=
thin the range of your weapon against anyone who attacks you (regardless =
of if they hit or miss you) or if they move to a square adjacent to
you. =20

If you decide to use Polearm Gamble it would have an over lapping affect =
as it says when a nonadjacent enemy enters a square adjacent to you, you =
can make an opportunity attack with a polearm against that enemy, but you=
grant combat advantage to that enemy until the end of the enemy=92s turn=
=2E Though if you chose to use this feat you will of course grant combat =
advantage which can be risky. =20

Ultimately the power feat combination plays as: you get an attack of oppo=
rtunity when nonadjacent enemy enters a square adjacent to you but grant =
combat advantage (if you have decided to take the attack of opportunity),=
except when you have used the power Warding Blade, at which point you no=
longer grant combat advantage when you take the attack of opportunity ag=
ainst nonadjacent enemy entering a square adjacent to you and you get an =
attack on opponents who make an attack within range of your weapon until =
the end of your next turn.=20

Sorry if this is to much of an explanation I just wanted to be thorough a=
s to clarify the issue as I am sure this will end up online. Happy Gaming=
!

Okay, that's lengthy enough for now - I'll add the other reply in the next msg.

Thanks!
 

Okay, here is the second question and reply:

Customer (Ronald Hall) - 12/29/2009 05:58 PM
Thank you for the quick reply. Much appreciated.
The problem for me is, multiple people on Enworld are saying that with Wa=
rding Blade, I would NOT get an OA from the enemy entering an adjacent sq=
uare because the OA is an interrupt. They claim that the interrupt from t=
he OA from warding blade stops their movement towards me as soon as they =
start moving. So in effect, if they were 10 squares away and declared the=
y were moving into an adjacent square next to me, that the OA would immed=
iately kick in, stop them from moving, and then I would miss since they w=
ere outside of my melee weapons 1 square (normal) reach. I can't believe =
that the OA from Warding Blade is intended to work this way.
They are saying that polearm gamble and warding blade work exactly the sa=
me way.
Okay, about Repulsive armor (you're right, probably better to keep this s=
eparate!).
They are saying that an enemy can be 3 squares from me, with a move speed=
of 6, move adjacent to me, get kicked back by repulsive armor, then cont=
inue his remaining move speed so he is adjacent to me again. This makes n=
o sense to me - if thats the case, then Repulsive armor is basically usel=
ess. I read the description as it being an immediate reaction, and not an=
interrupt, that the enemy would move into an adjacent square, Repulsive =
armor "wakes up", the enemy is allowed to continue the resolution of his =
move, he is now adjacent, and Repulsive armor kicks him back one square. =
If he wants to continue moving, he'd have to spend a standard action or u=
se some other power.
Also, how does Repulsive armor work against the following:
Someon shifts into an adjacent square
or
Someone uses an attack power that lets them shift into an adjacent square=
while attacking. In this case, would they be allowed to finish their att=
ack before being kicked back one square?=20
Thanks ever so much - you guys are great. :)

and here is what WOTC's CS replied:

Response (Support Agent) - 12/29/2009 06:51 PM
Hello Ronald,=20

Simply, they are wrong. An attack of opportunity is not an interrupt it =
is an action triggered by their movement. An interrupt stops an action. =
The only way that an attack of opportunity stops an action is if it kill=
s the person you hit. Powers that have the Immediate Interrupts descripto=
rs are the only thing that are actual interrupts. So this is how it work=
s: You attack the primary target causing 2[W] damage +wisdom, and you pus=
h any enemy within 2 squares of you, other than the target, 2 squares. U=
ntil the end of your next turn any enemy that tries to move adjacent to y=
ou takes (as he moves into the adjacent square) an attack of opportunity.

The two abilities work similarly but not the same. At any one time you c=
an only use the attack of opportunity from one of them, but not both (as =
you only get the one attack on any particular creatures turn). But one yo=
u can use any time and one you can use as an encounter power.=20

Once you add repulsive armor to the mix this is how the second part of th=
e power would go: target moves into attack you, as he becomes adjacent to=
you he provokes an attack of opportunity, and ends his movement phase, a=
s a immediate reaction your armors daily power pushes the enemy one squar=
e back (assuming you used the power during this encounter). At this poin=
t he has the option of giving up the rest of his turn (and not getting to=
attack) to move up to you again. This would not provoke another attack =
of opportunity as you already did one on this opponents turn. but as the =
Repulsion Armor's ability last until the end of the encounter he would be=
pushed back again. The nice thing about that armor is that you can move =
up to an opponent, but they cannot move up to you.=20

Thanks guys. I'll wait for your comments to see what you think.
 

Your second question actually shows how you're misunderstanding us, at least, cause that's not at all what we said.

It also shows a bit of a problem with the CS person's response, but ah well ('An interrupt stops an action.' )

Most interrupts don't just stop an action, they just try to. An OA 'interrupts' in the sense that it goes 'Hold on, before you do that, I do this'. An immediate interrupt is the same way. It _could_ stop an action, if you kill the target, move away to invalidate its action, or something similar.

The OA doesn't stop them from moving. It just interrupts them when they try to move that specific square.

I strongly suggest that you read up on the rules for immediate actions in general!

Fwiw, Repulsion Armor is very effective when someone shifts a square adjacent, as that usually ends their move. It's also effective when you have an ally nearby that you can push them adjacent to - in that circumstance they'll provoke an OA from the ally if they try to move closer to you again. It also works very well against slowed targets.
 

And simply put CS is just wrong. I still don't think they've really grasped the situation. The Warding Blades OA is an opportunity attack as defined in its text. The PHB states flat out that Opportunity Actions/Attacks interrupt the action they are triggered by. We already KNOW from numerous sources, including the FAQ that when you OA the enemy is in the square from which they moved (not the first square they were in before the entire move action, just the one they were in before they came adjacent to you, and movement BTW is not "plotted" ahead of time, each square of movement is decided as you move). Thus the basic mechanics of the game are at variance with what CS is saying.

In essence the last CS response you posted can only be interpreted as saying "well, Warding Blades is just different", but the guy has no logical basis on which he is pinning his assertion that it is different. Just because the OA is granted by a power and not basic rules or a class feature means NOTHING. It is phrased in terms of an OA, thus it has to follow the rules of OAs. If they want it to be "different" then the power's description needs to say that, period. Either they need to issue an FAQ entry saying its different, or errata.

As for the Repulsive Armor thing: Movement isn't "plotted". When an enemy decides to move he takes his move action and starts moving. First he decides where his first square of movement will take him, then anything triggered by that square of movement is resolved. Once that's done he decides where his second square of movement will take him, etc. So if one of those squares of movement takes him adjacent to someone with Repulsive Armor then it can trigger and he's pushed back. He still has his remaining squares of movement to use and he can decide where the next one takes him, etc. So YES he can move back towards you again. If he has enough movement remaining then he can get adjacent again.

Repulsive Armor is not a guaranteed way to keep someone away from you. Depending on how far they moved and how much movement they have when they get to you, it may not keep them away. Furthermore there are ways to combine it with other stuff for better effect. For instance there are a BUNCH of ways to add an effect to pushes that knock pushed targets prone. THAT would make RA much more effective and anyone using it would be clever to get something that gave them that.

Finally there is no requirement that Repulsive Armor be magnificently effective. A lot of items are only marginal and don't really gain you that much. Its an item that on its own CAN help you out. Given that its trigger is VERY common the chances are you'll get to use it to good effect sooner or later in any given day. It just may not be useful vs every enemy coming adjacent.

EDIT: And Keterys has outlined a lot of good tactics to use with it. Overall a good item for a fighter or even a back rank character.
 
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