D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

Imaro

Legend
Does it really matter if it's a lot of low-level humanoids who shouldn't be in a safe/settled area, or a huge dragon that shouldn't be in a safe/settled area?

Why a dragon... are we trying to find the most absurd and outlandish examples... how about a middleground? I would imagine that any monsters near or in a settlement would be the kind more likely to blend in using civilization as camouflage... or attacking prey from the shadows.

OK, that's 4 encounters. That's all going on in one city in one 'day?' ;) Well, maybe it is, probably just because the party's in town (fine with me, the game is about them, not about the demographics of the city).

...but I can see how some folks might have world-building issues with that.

Those issues might be ameliorated by shifting the pacing, from 6-8 encounters, or alternately 3 deadly ones (the difference doesn't seem that significant, to me), crammed into a day with room for two - hour rests - to those same encounters spread out over a 'season' (y'know, like a social season in a romance novel) in town, with plenty of time for a 'short' (rare full-night's sleep in spite of all the social obligations) rest between each, but no 'long rests' until you go home to the country (to flog that Regency 'season' reference).

I guess it depends on where you're willing to let your V-tude slide. Does it bother you more that the world disgorges a flurry of deadly encounters in a place that wouldn't normally have them - that, indeed, couldn't exist if such were even plausible? Or that the party rests at a different rate in different situations? Or that the party has more or fewer resources available without a short rest when you plan only a single encounter?

(That last was a nice idea, BTW.)

Thanks and no each of these isnt a single encounter but, IMO, could be used to generate 3 deadly encounters that dont strain versimilitude in a city environment.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Why a dragon... are we trying to find the most absurd and outlandish examples...
Yes, obviously. Though, really, it's not that outlandish, the suckers fly pretty fast. A dragon could just happen to wing in a few hundred miles from Mount Draco in the Dangerous Badlands of Badness (designated adventuring area), to attack the city...

I would imagine that any monsters near or in a settlement would be the kind more likely to blend in using civilization as camouflage... or attacking prey from the shadows.
.... on the same day a cult of Yaun-Ti assassins attacks the party....

...so that their third deadly encounter of the day, the one the plot actually called for, can actually be deadly, and the daily classes in the party actually feel that daily limitation some.

:shrug:

Is that any worse/better than 'this adventure is taking place in town over a month, no long rest until it's over, short rests are overnight, and many nights will be very busy with social engagements,' or 'There's only going to be one fight between long rests for this section of the campaign, so your short-rest abilities available are tripled until further notice?" IDK, but I can see objections to each.

Thanks and no each of these isnt a single encounter but, IMO, could be used to generate 3 deadly encounters that dont strain versimilitude in a city environment.
V-tude is notoriously subjective, of course. The point of squeezing three deadly encounters into a day on the town is to avoid harshing V-tude by denying a long rest at the end of that day or changing how the PC's short-rest recharge abilities work that day.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
I'm so totally confused by the latest turn in this thread. Wouldn't the relevant threat of a single encounter in the wilderness or a town be something in flux?

An area that is deadly for a party of 1st level PCs isn't deadly for the kings army and won't be deadly for the PCs at 5th level unless something in the world changes.

If a Tier 1 party clears out the bandits raiding the Kingsroad between Winterplace and Harencoridor, traveling on that road between adventures will no longer be dangerous unless an army of undead ice zombies moves in.

The Tier 2 party clears out the undead ice zombies because the Queen sent her troops to deal with a traitor rather than fight an army of the undead. Everyone is happy for a while until a couple of ancient white dragons decide to take up residence between Winterplace and Harencoridor, and suddenly the economy is wrecked because trade is completely shut down and the Queens army was decimated when it fought the traitor and so now the Tier 3 heroes have to go and fight the ice dragons.

With that taken care of, our heroes decide they've had enough of this petty world and travel to Sigil, but on the way there are attacked by a Balor and his minions, but now being Tier 4 they are able to defeat them and make their way to the city of doors.

So yes, in a living world you can have deadly challenges across all tiers of play and a reason for them in game by working with the system.

Or you can work against the system and prove how easy it is to "break" the game.

And while there are mechanical ways to ensure that every single encounter is balanced for challenge, as has been discussed, there are also plenty of story ways that also allow you to have variety in the challenge being presented. I like the fact that sometimes after fighting a deadly fight early in the morning and worrying about the next encounter that there isn't one, and that we "got off easy" that day. I like the fact that sometimes after facing a full day's encounters, I'm still not to the objective and have to decide whether to push on at a disadvantage or retreat and risk failure of my goal. I like the variety of stories that are able to be told without a set in stone mechanical solution to ensuring balance in every fight. I also don't begrudge those who wish to play differently.
 

Hussar

Legend
I always find it amusing when people want to use D&D as a world building system. Good grief, D&D has never, ever been a good system for world building. It's entirely illogical and mind bogglingly full of holes. Doesn't matter the edition. D&D is the Michael Bay of world building. A badger on meth with a serious concussion could find the holes in your setting if you're using D&D as a world building base.

D&D is an ADVENTURE BUILDING system. The system will not generate actual, workable settings. It can't. There are just far, far too many inconsistencies.

Arguing that the encounter system makes for wonky world building is pretty pointless. Of COURSE it makes for wonky world building. You're not supposed to use the system for that. It's not designed for that. Stop driving your sports car through mud tracks and complaining that it gets stuck.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If we analyse the XP budgets per adventuring day on DMG 84 against the levelling costs on PHB page 15 we can find how many adventuring days are expected to level (rounded to one decimal). About 33 days all told, or about 229 encounters.

Level Days
L-2 1.0
L-3 1.0
L-4 1.5
L-5 2.2
L-6 2.1
L-7 2.3
L-8 2.2
L-9 2.3
L-10 2.1
L-11 2.3
L-12 1.4
L-13 1.7
L-14 1.5
L-15 1.7
L-16 1.7
L-17 1.5
L-18 1.6
L-19 1.5
L-20 1.0

That's about the simplest, most direct mechanical solution I can think of right now. It's not "official" but it snaps right on to the official rules without difficulty. The critical flaw is probably tying it nicely to our fiction...
The truly critical flaw lies just a bit deeper: that by the published rules/guidelines a character that takes no downtime can in theory go from 1st to 20th in just over a game-world month.

Bleah.

Lan-"if there's a job out there offering this rate of advancement in the real world, where do I sign up"-efan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If I continue to populate my world this way, civilization will not be able to stand, or will be pushed back into heavily fortified stronghold cities, which then invites other worldbuilding questions. The idea of pushing 3 deadly a day on adventurers distorts even a passing attempt to justify the world that exists to support it.
Sounds like a points-of-light setting to me.

However...

Imaro said:
Second are you saying every day of their lives outside of being in a city or civilized area a deadly group of monsters attacks adventurers? Thats just absurd. If you choose to make every single day of travel an all out life or death battle... I've literally never experienced this in a game... some days traveling through the wilderness are dangerous yes... but the majority are uneventful (combat wise) with the purpose of providing color, exploration/social opportunities and/or a chance for inter-party roleplay.
This is also true. Just because you in theory can throw 3 deadlies at the party every day they're out of town doesn't at all mean you have to.

That said, to make restinig work as intended it does make sense to batch them together - maybe 3 deadlies one day, then several days of nothing, then a day with 2 or 3 deadlies, etc.

Lan-"if I had a fighter in a 5e game I'd have painted on her shield 'I count as a deadly encounter'"-efan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Hussar said:
I always find it amusing when people want to use D&D as a world building system. Good grief, D&D has never, ever been a good system for world building. It's entirely illogical and mind bogglingly full of holes. Doesn't matter the edition. D&D is the Michael Bay of world building. A badger on meth with a serious concussion could find the holes in your setting if you're using D&D as a world building base.
Maybe, but it's what I've got and so I'm still going to try.

Why a dragon... are we trying to find the most absurd and outlandish examples... how about a middleground? I would imagine that any monsters near or in a settlement would be the kind more likely to blend in using civilization as camouflage... or attacking prey from the shadows.
You mean, kinda like a shapeshifting dragon might do?

:)

Lanefan
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
So yes, in a living world you can have deadly challenges across all tiers of play and a reason for them in game by working with the system.
I'm not sure what you're describing is 'working with the system,' or 'accepting that the system doesn't work,' or 'distorting the campaign to compensate for the system's shortcomings.'

Or you can work against the system and prove how easy it is to "break" the game.
You don't have to work against the system for it to 'break,' you have to work against it to keep it from breaking. The system says any wizard can just pick a spell at level-up that will let him rest more or less at will. If you don't work against the system he rests more or less at will, and the system's class balance and encounter difficulty guidelines 'break.' It's your job as DM to fix or otherwise cope with that (constantly foil the spell, dial up encounters, give out some magic items to beef up the characters disfavored by the slower pacing, then dial up encounters some more, etc).

And while there are mechanical ways to ensure that every single encounter is balanced for challenge, as has been discussed, there are also plenty of story ways that also allow you to have variety in the challenge being presented.
That's actually part of the issue: the 'story' of your campaign might go in a lot of different directions, different challenges, different pacing, etc, over it's run. But, if you're not willing to over-rule the system fairly assertively in this and other areas, it won't work that well for you across all that.

I like the fact that sometimes after fighting a deadly fight early in the morning and worrying about the next encounter that there isn't one, and that we "got off easy" that day. I like the fact that sometimes after facing a full day's encounters, I'm still not to the objective and have to decide whether to push on at a disadvantage or retreat and risk failure of my goal.
The elephant can enable results like that - or stomp on them. Deadly fight early in the morning? Force a rest, you're fine. You didn't 'get off easy,' because you just pushed the button and got the rest, you get off easy whenever you feel like it. Pushing on at a disadvantage /is/ risking failure, push that button, you should have bypassed some of those encounters, anyway.

I like the variety of stories that are able to be told without a set in stone mechanical solution to ensuring balance in every fight.
It's not so much 'balance' (which is on the intra-party side, mainly around class) as 'difficulty' being what you designed it to be, and you can always dial that up or down, you just have to be aware of it, and aware what that means to exp and advancement (and maybe tweak that, as well). That's the less intractable part of the issue.

I always find it amusing when people want to use D&D as a world building system. Good grief, D&D has never, ever been a good system for world building. It's entirely illogical and mind bogglingly full of holes. Doesn't matter the edition. D&D is the Michael Bay of world building. A badger on meth with a serious concussion could find the holes in your setting if you're using D&D as a world building base.
A badger on meth would make holes in just about anything.

Seriously, though, you may be right, but 3.x sure came close to looking like you could use it in world building or world simulation. I had rules for how expensive an item you could find in how large a community, gave demographics by class (70% commoner), had classes for not just NPCs but non-adventuring NPCs (and for monsters), etc...

Yes, if it would have been terrible if used that way in too much depth, but it's as close as D&D ever came.

D&D is an ADVENTURE BUILDING system.
Not currently, no. It's a character building system, a combat system, a magic system, and some other-check-resolution and encounter guidelines that might constitute adventure-building guidelines, but certainly not a system.
You could use it as an adventure-building system but you'd get 5MWD murder hobo adventures.

Sounds like a points-of-light setting to me.
Ironic, that.

because you in theory can throw 3 deadlies at the party every day they're out of town doesn't at all mean you have to.

That said, to make restinig work as intended it does make sense to batch them together - maybe 3 deadlies one day, then several days of nothing, then a day with 2 or 3 deadlies, etc.
Yeah, you have a choice, impose a semblance of balance, or pace the campaign how you wanted to, or don't treat the rules for rests as sacrosanct and flex that Empowerment even where it's not so freely given...
 
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shoak1

Banned
Banned
What ARE the basics? Seems like most everyone except you and a handful of others feel the basics (and more) are perfectly covered in the rules already. Certainly enough to know what to do with them in their games. And I hate to break this to you, but if you want the rules to cover everything that YOU personally want, you're going to be waiting a long time. There has never been a rulebook out there that covered everything everybody wants how they wanted it. Ever. At some point you need to take ownership of your playstyle and stop blaming someone else for not meeting your individual standards. The game is a toolbox. If you're expecting the RAW to be exactly how you want it with everything spelled out, then you're in for disappointment. They didn't write the game just for you. Or for Capt Zapp. Or for me. They wrote it for the gaming community as a whole. And if you can't come up with solutions on your own, then that's your problem. I'm sure you can. I'm sure you're an intelligent person. You just don't want to for whatever reason. And if a DM thinks making rulings is not a satisfactory way of resolving a problem that comes up, then they are playing the wrong game, to be perfectly frank.

Making rpg "toolboxes" seem like a great line of work to get into lol..... especially since apparently your fan base is gonna be filled with eternal apologists for any structural, logical, or balance flaw ("like OMG shoak1 - you do realize those terms are like soooooo subjective anyway, right LOL LOL?"), fans eager to fill any gaping hole in your design (or any elephant in the room) with their own sweat......fans who always put the word balance in quotation marks :):):).

LOL Sacrosanct - I'm guessing if the designers didn't include CR ratings, that would be fine w/you too ("If you're concerned about such things shoak1, you can calculate them - it shows you how on p. xx, so what's the problem?!?!?"). Rpg dudes are funny. Heck, why not just sell a book with pictures of dragons on the cover with blank pages filled with guidelines of where to write, and market it as the "Ultimate Toolbox" lol ?!?!?!? ("Shoak1, stop always complaining - its just a toolbox....You do know you're supposed to buy your own tools right?? Every table is different so how could they possibly know what tools YOU need silly?!?!?!?")
 
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