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D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

Tony Vargas

Legend
SO again claiming it stretches verisimilitude for there to be 3 deadly encounters of 200 Orcs because the town would never be able to defend itself against that many Orcs makes no sense to me...
Vtude arguments like that have always been nonsense: they're not merely subjective, but entirely personal and downright arbitrary.

But, if the DM's campaign doesn't call for 6-8 encounters and 2-3 short rests on every day that there's call to use a limited resource, like a slot, he has a choice - change the campaign, or find an alternate way to limit the resource.

Why his campaign calls for some single-encounter days, and other more intense ones, doesn't matter, that the system fails him, and it's his responsibility to fix it, does.
 
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Imaro

Legend
Vtude arguments like that have always nonsense, they're not merely subjective, but entirely personal and downright arbitrary.

But, if the DM's campaign doesn't call for 6-8 encounters and 2-3 short rests on every day that there's call to use a limited resource, like a slot, he has a choice - change the campaign, or find an alternate way to limit the resource.

Why his campaign calls for some single-encounter days, and other more intense ones, doesn't matter, that the system fails him, and it's his responsibility to fix it, does.

But we are giving him a way to vary the number of encounters from 3 up and the claim is it fails in a worldbuilding sense...

Is the system failing him in the way he is claiming though is my point of contention? Is it forcing him to worldbuild a certain way? I don't think it is, Again a deadly encounter can be constructed in a multitude of ways... so when you claim it forces you to plop down 600 Orcs I call bull, that specific encounter is a choice on your part... If you must have Orcs well ramp the CR up so you need less if 600 doesn't make sense... Or if you don't need Orcs specifically...we can substitute a different monster/NPC.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
But we are giving him a way to vary the number of encounters from 3 up
While 3 twice-as-hard encounters with a short rest after each seems logical enough on the surface, I'm not convinced it's really going to work. Both because its going to stress resources and move the spotlight differently, and because, as far as whatever reasons for not wanting to follow the guidelines in the first go, it's still the same amount of threat jumping out just to grease the gears of the system, not to serve the establishment of the world, tone of the campaign, or needs of the story.

the claim is it fails in a worldbuilding sense...

Is the system failing him in the way he is claiming though is my point of contention? Is it forcing him to worldbuild a certain way?
Yes, it's 'failing' him, in the sense that he wants class balance, encounter guidelines that deliver the intended difficulty, /and/ does not have a campaign/world in mind that coincidentally calls for the kind of time pressure &c that would allow the system to deliver that as designed.

...

In another sense, it's even failing those who do stick within the guidelines, or who deviate from them and ignore the consequences, just in a much less acute way.
 
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Imaro

Legend
Yes, it's 'failing' him, in the sense that he wants class balance, encounter guidelines that deliver the intended difficulty, and does not have a campaign/world in mind that calls for the kind of time pressure &c that would allow the system to deliver that as designed.

Wait what? Let's step back for a minute here. If you're designing the encounters for your world... how?? There's a certain amount of restriction "balance" requires otherwise everything and anything in the game in every and any combination would be "balanced" (are there any examples of a game that operates like this??) and there's also a certain amount of responsibility you have to take for utilizing the tools correctly or incorrectly to achieve the goals you want... if you're not doing that then that's a failing on your part not on the rules themselves. What exactly is this campaign world where these rules won't work and why? This has been unclear to me since the discussion began. So if you can articulate what the worlbuilding problems are this causes succinctly and clearly.

And, while 3 twice-as-hard encounters with a short rest after each seems logical enough on the surface, I'm not convinced it's really going to work. Both because its going to stress resources and move the spotlight differently, and because, as far as whatever reasons for not wanting to follow the guidelines in the first go, it's still the same amount of threat jumping out just to grease the gears of the system.

Well you have as much right to conjecture as the next man. Personally before I go down the path of doubting something I'd give it a chance...

In another sense, it's even failing those who do stick within the guidelines, or who deviate from them and ignore the consequences, just in a much less acute way.

I don't think "failing" means what you think it means. If I'm using the guidelines and my game is running the way i want to... how can it be failing??
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
Wait what? Let's step back for a minute here. If you're designing the encounters for your world... how??
For the campaign, which includes the world, among other creative considerations. So, for an obvious instance, if the world doesn't have elves, you wouldn't have an encounter with elves. If an area is established as overrun with griffons and bulletes, it's very unlikely you'd have an encounter with horse-riding nomads (because both those monsters love horseflesh).

That's obvious, but softer considerations, like the theme of the campaign or the feel of an area of it or the 'needs of the story' or whatnot can also factor into how difficult and how many encounters you might want to throw down in a given period of time - be it a day or months or an hour (there's plenty of time for multiple encounters in a single hour, in a practical sense).

There's a certain amount of restriction "balance" requires otherwise everything and anything in the game in every and any combination would be "balanced"
There's restriction that 'balance' (which is strictly optional) in 5e requires, yes. 'Balanced' can still mean 'this is it, we're all going to die,' in the face of a string of deadly encounters, but you'll all die without one of you showing the others up, FWIW. ;)

(are there any examples of a game that operates like this??)
Yes. Any game that doesn't use attrition across encounters as a source of challenge would be indifferent to the number and timing of encounters. And, any system that doesn't differentiate classes (well, groups of classes) by giving them different supply, timing & power of limited-use resources, would be indifferent to the ratio of encounters to resource-recovery opportunities in terms of class balance (not in terms of encounter difficulty, though) - including classless systems, which, outside of D&D and it's immitators, are probably the norm for RPGs, not that anything as niche and unpopular as TTRPGs has a 'norm.'

So, really, yes, quite a few, just none of them D&D (not even 4e, the 'not D&D D&D,' though it came closest)... well, "D&D" Gamma World was that way, but the 'D&D' part was un-called-for, IMHO.

For one instance (a not at all balanced game in many other ways) I ran Mage: the Ascension for quite a while. If you had a Monk and a Wizard in D&D, their different resource-recovery mixes would make tuning the encounter/short-rest/day ratios to keep them 'balanced' advisable. If you had an Akashic Brother and an Hermetic (basically the same concepts/archetypes), in M:tA, there'd be plenty of other things imbalancing them relative to eachother, but how many different times they threw down with agents of the Technocracy that day wouldn't be one of them.

and there's also a certain amount of responsibility you have to take for utilizing the tools correctly or incorrectly to achieve the goals you want...
Yep, I believe I said something like that - of course 'utilizing the tools correctly' can include tossing or altering them, 'cause they're just a starting point.


What exactly is this campaign world where these rules won't work and why?
Really, they don't work in any world. Not until a DM steps up and takes events in hand to make them work.


Well you have as much right to conjecture as the next man. Personally before I go down the path of doubting something I'd give it a chance...
One of the perks of 5e is that it is close enough to the classic game that we can apply our hard-won DMing skills of decades past to it. 5e's Elephant is much like the Mastodons of those days, none of this is really a mystery.

Just for one instance of a factor that confounds the 'solution' of 3-4 double-strength encounters:
When you dial up difficulty in D&D, as you'd have to do to cram an encounter budget and challenge of a whole day into 3 encounters, the PCs are in more and more obvious & immediate danger, and they respond by blowing their most potent resources - their biggest slots, powering their best spell for the circumstance, for instance. That's when the classes with those resources get their spotlight time. In the 6-8 medium-hard guideline, they'll more likely shine in the hard encounters, while others will shine in the medium ones - and that's an issue of it's own, too, but no need to go there right now. In the 3-deadly alternative, the volume is turned all the way up, all the time. Similarly, much as I like the idea of multiplying short-rest abilities to bring them into line with long-rest abilities in a single-encounter day, the daily abilities are still typically more potent, individually (and in the case of spell, more versatile, as well, though, again, another topic...).

I don't think "failing" means what you think it means.
It means what I meant it to mean in the context as I meant to use it. ;P

Seriously, though, yeah, I can be harsh with systems. We could spin it as the system 'presents you with an opportunity to exercise DM Empowerment to better your campaign's play experience' rather than 'fails' just because

If I'm using the guidelines and my game is running the way i want to... how can it be failing??
You could be missing out on running a better game if you were not constrained by those guidelines...

:shrug:

The qualities of a system don't change just because opinions about them or experiences of them are necessarily subjective.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
But, if a group isn't having a problem at all, it's not that they don't acknowledge the elephant, it's that the elephant doesn't exist at all, for that group. The only way it becomes the elephant in the room is if the problem is experienced by everyone but, only a small group are actually recognizing the problem. My point is, the elephant simply does not exist at some tables.
It's like any other monster in any other room in any other dungeon: different parties are going to approach it different ways.

Some will charge headlong with sword and spell, attacking it with everything they've got.

Some will try to stealth around it and get to the treasure (they hope) it guards.

Some will wake it up and attempt to negotiate with it.

Some will take one look, realize its CR is way beyond their pay grade, and go find another room to explore.

And some will decide it's not a threat, ignore it, and carry on with their day.

Lan-"the best and most entertaining parties, though, are the ones who try all five options at once"-efan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
But we are giving him a way to vary the number of encounters from 3 up and the claim is it fails in a worldbuilding sense...

Is the system failing him in the way he is claiming though is my point of contention? Is it forcing him to worldbuild a certain way? I don't think it is, Again a deadly encounter can be constructed in a multitude of ways... so when you claim it forces you to plop down 600 Orcs I call bull, that specific encounter is a choice on your part... If you must have Orcs well ramp the CR up so you need less if 600 doesn't make sense... Or if you don't need Orcs specifically...we can substitute a different monster/NPC.
If - and I say if as I'm not quite sure whether this is the case or not - but if the goal is to consistently provide a certain number of deadlies and-or a certain number of non-deadlies per day whenever a party is travelling for any great distance there's no way that can reasonably be done without significantly affecting the worldbuilding side; as to provide that many encounters even to a mid-level party* would require the game world to be absolutely crawling with monsters and other threats to the point where ordinary commoners almost could not exist. At the very least it almost forces a points-of-light type of setting, which is fine with me as an option but might not appeal to everyone; and I certainly don't want to be forced into it.

And it's not like the environment itself can help much, as 5e as written doesn't really support the idea of attrition over a period of longer than a day.

* - and who says the PC party are the only adventurers out there...something has to challenge all the other parties as well, serving only to escalate the problem. :)

Lanefan
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
And it's not like the environment itself can help much, as 5e as written doesn't really support the idea of attrition over a period of longer than a day.
There's the gritty option, but then the whole campaign has that slower pacing.

That's why I like asserting that the DM can rule on how long rests take as a matter of course.

It's like any other monster in any other room in any other dungeon: different parties are going to approach it different ways.
"Yeah," says the monster, "but of all the rooms in all the dungeons in all the realms, they walk into mine."
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
Yeah, I always enjoy and respect your logic, but the fact that I build my world since the 80s with nothing but D&D contradicts your statement.


I could accept your implied (IMO) statement that it may not be the best or most consistent, but there's nothing wrong with it either.

/notangentintended

I would posit that D&D has always supported world building. From the section in the B/X books, to supplements like Creative Campaigning in 2e, to the plethora of articles in Dragon Magazine re: the subject. And like you, I've never had an problem doing world building since the 80s.
 

Imaro

Legend
If - and I say if as I'm not quite sure whether this is the case or not - but if the goal is to consistently provide a certain number of deadlies and-or a certain number of non-deadlies per day whenever a party is travelling for any great distance there's no way that can reasonably be done without significantly affecting the worldbuilding side; as to provide that many encounters even to a mid-level party* would require the game world to be absolutely crawling with monsters and other threats to the point where ordinary commoners almost could not exist. At the very least it almost forces a points-of-light type of setting, which is fine with me as an option but might not appeal to everyone; and I certainly don't want to be forced into it.

Or the adventurers by the very nature of their chosen profession and activities (or perhaps just bad luck) encounter these things more frequently than the common man. In the same way there may be more spellcasters, magic items, gold, etc. in a party than the average group of non-adventurers in the population would have.

And it's not like the environment itself can help much, as 5e as written doesn't really support the idea of attrition over a period of longer than a day.

Isn't that what the rest variants in the DMG are for?

* - and who says the PC party are the only adventurers out there...something has to challenge all the other parties as well, serving only to escalate the problem. :)

Lanefan

What percentage of the population do adventurers make up... you may be surprised at how few deadly encounters it takes in comparison to the population of the world to get them from 1st to 20th level and that's not counting the ones who don't make it and leave deadly encounters for another adventurer to defeat... :cool:
 

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