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D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

Tobold

Explorer
In the end it all comes down to the question: Who decides when and how often to take a long rest, the DM or the players?

In an ideal world that doesn't make a difference, because the goals of the DM and the players are perfectly aligned, and there is a certain optimum that can be found by experimentation (which depends on party size and composition, so not the same for everybody). In the real world the alignment of goals is less perfect: If the players want to be powerful and survive every combat encounter, their optimum moves towards more frequent rests, with the extreme of a long rest after every encounter. For the DM, who wants class balance and series of challenging encounters that necessitate resource management, the optimum is towards more encounters between long rests.

So if the goals aren't perfectly aligned, both extreme cases of "Players decide when to rest with zero restrictions" and "DM decides when the players can rest" are far from optimal, and can lead to conflict between players and DM. The players feel railroaded, or the DM feels his adventure is getting powergamed.

Thus the search for a mechanical rules solution that doesn't depend on DM fiat. If there are rules that are known from the start which make that a long rest has certain disadvantages for the players, and if these rules are well designed, the goals of DM and players on resting align again.

For my Princes of the Apocalypse campaign I will go with house rules on "environment danger level" (the players can find out or know how dangerous it is to rest in any given place and can thus estimate the consequences of resting) and double xp for encounters after the first of the day (giving an incentive to do more encounters per day, works for PotA because the adventure doesn't normally give enough xp per dungeon). But those are my house rules, and I would have preferred a rules system that doesn't have the problem and doesn't require DM fiat or intervention.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Thing is, no one in this thread appears to be denying that high level 5e has issues. I think pretty much everyone agrees with you. But, then, everyone in this thread is probably a pretty experienced DM with pretty experienced players. Which is not really the baseline for WotC modules. It can't be, really. They're not expecting groups that have played for years who can squeeze out every possible advantage. That's not who they are writing for.

But, be that as it may, there's a bit of a problem with your question. High level adventures? Well, since CoS ended at 10th, Out of the Abyss ends at 15th, Storm Kings Thunder taps out at 11th, as does Tomb of Annihilation, so, really, that's how they're fixing the problem - by avoiding it entirely.

Basically, at the end of the day, I think WotC has largely washed their hands of high level adventures. You want to play in the mid to late double digit levels? Go right ahead, but, you're pretty much on your own.
This thread is not about something that only affects high level 5e.

This thread is about how the entirety of 5e has a systemic failure, a mismatch between what the game says and what the game does.

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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
The only people to 'blame' for the quality of their game and the experience of their players is the GM, not the system they play in.


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Well... good players and a good gm are the main factor in having a good game. But it's folly to pretend that the gaming system/rules cannot facilitate/hinder the process.

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cmad1977

Hero
Well... good players and a good gm are the main factor in having a good game. But it's folly to pretend that the gaming system/rules cannot facilitate/hinder the process.

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Yes. The MAIN(primary, major, most responsible party) is the GM. I agree.

We've all played in crappy systems and had a blast. When the issue(s) are
GWM is OP
Ranged attacks are OP
Resting is broken
These spells are broken
Passive perception is broken
Feats break the game
Etc...
Well... at a certain point it's not them.. it's us.


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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Thing is, no one in this thread appears to be denying that high level 5e has issues. I think pretty much everyone agrees with you. But, then, everyone in this thread is probably a pretty experienced DM with pretty experienced players. Which is not really the baseline for WotC modules. It can't be, really. They're not expecting groups that have played for years who can squeeze out every possible advantage. That's not who they are writing for.

But, be that as it may, there's a bit of a problem with your question. High level adventures? Well, since CoS ended at 10th, Out of the Abyss ends at 15th, Storm Kings Thunder taps out at 11th, as does Tomb of Annihilation, so, really, that's how they're fixing the problem - by avoiding it entirely. :p

Basically, at the end of the day, I think WotC has largely washed their hands of high level adventures. You want to play in the mid to late double digit levels? Go right ahead, but, you're pretty much on your own.

Um, Zapp didn't refer to 'high level' anywhere at all in the post you quoted. You're off on a goose chase without even the rumor of a goose.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
In the end it all comes down to the question: Who decides when and how often to take a long rest, the DM or the players?.

Both. This notion that it's players vs DM, or that players decide, or that DMs decide is a fundamentally flawed notion. DMs still have guidelines and restrictions to follow, even if the players never know them. It's not DM fiat, and any DM that relies on fiat for everything is a poor DM. And any player that assumes a DM narrating a result is using fiat is a poor player who is making assumptions without knowing everything going on behind the scene.

So in this topic, the players are the ones who initiate the rest. The DM does not tell the players when to rest or when they can't. The players dictate that like any other action they want their PCs to do. However, that doesn't mean they automatically get that rest. The DM narrates if that is possible or not, but again that's not fiat. That's the DM following the guidelines of a living world. Good DMs don't arbitrarily decide to add a patrol of monsters just so they can interrupt a rest. They look at what's going on in that environment where the PCs are attempting to rest. Are they in a monster's lair or dungeon? Is it reasonable that wandering monsters will discover them within an hour/8 hour window? Are the monsters alerted and actively searching for them? What determines whether or not a rest works is the game world itself, not the DM, not the players. The DM is just a referee, to treat all creatures as they would normally behave in the scenario.
 

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