D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

[shoak1]

Yeah, that last sentence that you quoted from me was a poor choice on my part. However, the questions were a sincere attempt to understand where you were drawing the line.
[EDIT: And the rest of your response did​ answer my questions. Thank you.]

Np and sorry if I was a tad snarky

 

[CapnZapp]

IMHO, DMs don't need WotC's permission to go ahead and rule whether/when rests are possible and/or that they take more or less time in some situations than others. But the resistance I've seen in this thread makes me think maybe a nod to the concept in the PH wouldn't have hurt, so that players don't think of resting as a right or law of physics, but as just another case of players declaring actions (we stop and rest ) and the DM narrating results (you get such-and-such benefits or "you are attacked by wandering Pit Fiends" or whatever).

Thank you.

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[CapnZapp]

I've mentioned this far earlier in this thread, but the lesson I've learned from playing 5e and tweaked to fit my players is that I run the game in two modes. Exploration Mode and Mission Mode.

Exploration Mode will rarely see the adventurers hit their daily XP limit.

But you say this like it has to be this way.

If you rule "no long rests on the road" you can suddenly have a 6-8 encounter sequence working just like it's supposed to even if the journey takes you a month in game time.

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[CapnZapp]

The modules would be a good start - and I would say the exact opposite of what you suggest. It is the new and casual players that are most likely to be detrimentally affected by the lack of coherent support in resource management/rest. Modern gamers challenge game systems and will quickly tire of a game that is so easy to "beat." And that is exactly what happens with rest-encounter-rest. And imagine the poor noob DM trying to stop it and having to come up with plausible reasons on the fly to limit the rests.....And all because the designers don't even give token support to this fundamental balancing mechanic.

Now hard core roleplayers wont care - it doesn't affect their ability to socially interact, develop their characters, etc. Veteran DMs will likely have some tricks up their sleeve or prep the module to account for the management. But why should they have to?

Thank you.

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[CapnZapp]

Why do you assume the players are able to challenge the game system through quick mastery but not the DM?

I think this is at the heart of both your and CapnZapp's concerns about the supposed elephant in the room. You both give tons of credit to players being able to master the game and trivialize it, but none to the DM to counter that.

Because DM Tools are not for us to reinvent the wheel each time.

Some of us would feel a LOT better if we could point to a rule (variant) in an official book.

Not to mention how great it would be if adventure authors then started to use it...

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[OB1]

But you say this like it has to be this way.

If you rule "no long rests on the road" you can suddenly have a 6-8 encounter sequence working just like it's supposed to even if the journey takes you a month in game time.

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That's another good way to do it! Simple and elegant.

Because DM Tools are not for us to reinvent the wheel each time.

Some of us would feel a LOT better if we could point to a rule (variant) in an official book.

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Curious as to your thoughts on this rule variant I suggested a few pages back. I think it would be great to see something like this in Xanthanar's Guide to Everything this fall.

Adjusted XP Based Rest Variant
Adventurer's and monsters draw their extraordinary powers and resilience to damage directly from the Positive and Negative planes. When you defeat other NPCs and monsters, you gain some of their power as you absorb lightning-like energy from your defeated foe. In addition to tracking XP for level advancement, players also need to keep an XP Rest Count. After each encounter, DMs should provide to the players the adjusted XP from the encounter (divided by the number of PCs, as with level XP), which they track as their XP Rest Count.

When you collect 1/3 and then 2/3s of your daily Adjusted XP budget since your last long rest, you gain the benefit of a short rest. You can also gain this benefit from an 8 hour rest in a safe location, but doing so also resets your XP Rest Count to 0.
When you collect XP equal to or greater than your daily Adjusted XP budget since your last long rest, you gain the benefit of a long rest. You can also gain this benefit from a 7 day rest in a safe location. Your XP Rest Count resets to 0 after either type of long rest.

A home, and inn, a friendly keep or guarded camps are examples of safe locations. If players need to set a watch, it is not a safe location. A random encounter triggers a reset of the time necessary in a safe location to benefit from it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Because DM Tools are not for us to reinvent the wheel each time.

Some of us would feel a LOT better if we could point to a rule (variant) in an official book.

If I'm inclined to narrate success/failure a lot, I can point right at the core resolution mechanic. If I decide to rule the option of a short rest is unavailable in the current situation, I don't think I have quite as clear a cite for any rules lawyers.

(Just have to find them in contempt.)

Not to mention how great it would be if adventure authors then started to use it...

I'm guess'n they have their guidelines and market research and SMOG conspiracies and everything in place and the approach to published adventures is unlikely to change. ( I mean, seriously, there was a lot of interest expressed in /smaller adventures/, but did they actually give us little soft-bound smaller adventures like back in the day? No, one big expensive hard-bound book collecting several such adventures. )

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Because DM Tools are not for us to reinvent the wheel each time.

Some of us would feel a LOT better if we could point to a rule (variant) in an official book.

Not to mention how great it would be if adventure authors then started to use it...

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OK. Then I have one for you.

I just picked up the 5e Adventures in Middle Earth Player's and Loremaster's Guides. They have a very interesting mechanic on Journeys that I think is right you your alley.

It's an official 5e book (by a publisher other than WotC), and an official Middle Earth book.

They actually have three different "phases" - the "Journey Phase," which has rules similar to what you want - no long rests on a journey, and they work in fatigue and character skills that have an impact on the beginning, middle and end of the journey, which than has an impact at the start of the "Adventuring Phase" which is regular D&D mode.

Typically one adventure occurs per year, and ends with a "Fellowship Phase" which is essentially an expanded concept of downtime (but much more involved).

The Journey Phase also shows how complex changing the rules can be. It's 12 pages long in the Player's Guide, with another 9 pages (primarily for creating your own Journey tables) in the Loremaster's Guide.

It seems clear to me that they are using concepts from other game systems as well, although I couldn't tell you which ones.

The basic approach is that before the Embarkation step, you assign each character to one of four tasks. If more than one character is assigned to a specific task, the main character gets advantage on their checks. So if there is more than one scout, or hunter, it can help.

Then a peril rating is assigned to the journey by the GM, based primarily on the terrain (5 difficulty categories) on the map, and then a d12 is rolled, modified by the Guides's survival proficiency bonus and half their wisdom bonus, minus the peril rating (yes, there are a number of these sort of convoluted mechanics). Then you consult a table to see what happens. This sets a tone or mood for the journey, and usually includes a modifier for the next roll.

During the journey, you have a random number of events, with more events for longer journeys. Through the journey, any skill checks are made with a DC = 12 + the peril rating.

So you roll a d12 and consult a table of events. A long daunting journey can have up to 9 events. Modifiers from the embarkation roll, and prior events on this and other journeys modify these rolls.

The events are very vague ("A Chance Encounter" is a group of travelers for example, or "An Obstacle" or "Agents of the Enemy" are others). Agents of the Enemy is a decent example, because the look-out(s) might spot the enemy before they are aware of the party, creating a different sort of encounter than if they don't. There are also usually two random numbers, in this case "all rolls outside of combat are made with disadvantage/advantage if the embarkation roll was 3 or 10."

Remember there are no long rests, although non-magical healing is more powerful as well. In addition, a number of the encounters are adding levels of exhaustion (and things that happen in events/encounters can do that too).

After all this, there are modifiers carried over to the Arrival step, which eventually results in something like "Grimly Determined. The many leagues that the company has travelled have filled them with a sense of clear purpose regarding their goals, dark though the path ahead might be. As a result, the Guide will receive a +1 bonus to their next Embarkation roll," or "Arrival in Poor Spirits. They are beset by foul moods and short tempers that they must work hard to throw off. Each has disadvantage on all ability checks pertaining to social interaction, until such time as they succeed on one of those rolls. This penalty will apply if they seek an Audience (another new mechanic) at the destination. If there is a single upside to this dark mood, it is that they are so spoiling for a fight that each member of the company receives advantage to their Initiative rolls until they take a short rest."

There are a lot of really interesting ideas, and while I'm not sure I'll ever run the game itself, I'll certainly be using a lot of their ideas. The GM will need to be good at making up these tables, because with only 12 options things will get fairly repetitive. It is a very interesting way to design a game, and builds in a guaranteed differentiation between a journey and exploring a specific locale or dungeon (or interaction with the world with the Audience rules). The Fellowship Phase provides options for gaining some things without gaining a level too.

It is definitely much more prescriptive than D&D, in that a very specific feel and style of play is being promoted by the rules, and it does remind me of some of the Story Now games in that regard, although it's still very much a D&D base. Some of the mechanics feel a bit forced to me, but I can certainly see the appeal for many. I definitely recommend checking it out, overall I think it's really, really well done and will use a lot of ideas from it myself.

 

[MichaelSomething]

If you decide what's behind the door before the PCs get there, they have real options of what door to open with real consequences. If you decide whats behind the door when they open it, then it was just a phantom choice, and that's the problem with sandbox play as I see it. Lots of flag waving about player freedom and choices and in the end still its just a DM making up whatever he wants after each player "choice", thereby making those "choices" trivial or meaningless.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355801-DMing-philosophy-from-Lewis-Pulsipher

 

[shoak1]

I am not really sure why attrition is even a thing. You don't need to do a lot of hard work. Just ignore it. Its not a thing......I add monsters and subtract monsters all the time as the situation demands. I don't do any hard work. I have job, thank you very much, and DMing is not it. Its easy for me to add monsters (the far door opens and a group of cultists rush in!) or subtract (With have of their number down, the cultists try to flee). Attrition is great for an Avalon Hill Napoleonic Wargame. My 2cp, chasing attrition balance in D&D turn the game into EVE online: A Spreadsheet Simulator.

My players like to know that what is behind the door was there yesterday, and isnt just some stuff the DM decided was there when the PCs got there. Its really that simple. And we are not alone lol - half the D and D ers I meet are that way. They just don't like sandbox and sandbox DMs .... they'd rather be railroaded into a good story and adventure path that is pre-designed and balanced - they don't want the DM to decide whats behind the door once they get there, like I said.

To each their own - I just don't get why this concept is so difficult for many of you to understand. Almost all the games on the planet are predesigned - much of D and D history as well is dominated by people playing non-sandbox adventure paths - sure sandbox is dominant now in 5e but it hasn't always been that way.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355801-DMing-philosophy-from-Lewis-Pulsipher
[ID&D players can be divided into two groups, those who want to play the game as a game and those who want to play it as a fantasy novel . . . The escapists can be divided into those who prefer to be told a story by the referee, in effect, with themselves as protagonists, and those who like a silly, totally unbelievable game. . . In California, for example, this leads to referees who make up more than half of what happens, what is encountered and so on, as the game progresses rather than doing it beforehand. . . . [T]he player is a passive receptor, with little control over what happens. . .

Gary Gygax has made it clear that D&D is a wargame, though the majority of players do not use it as such. . .

The referee [in a skill campaign] must think of himself as a friendly computer with discretion. Referee interference in the game must be reduced as much as possible . . . Effectively, this means that the referee should not make up anything important after an adventure has begun. He should only operate monsters encountered according to logic and, where necessary, dice rolls. . . . Occasionally an adventure will be dull, because players take the wrong turns or check the wrong rooms, while others may be 'milk runs' because the players are lucky. Referees must resist the temptation to manipulate the players by changing the situation. Every time the referee manipulates the game on the basis of his omniscience, he reduces the element of skill. . .

lol love that quote @MichaelSomething. It really articulates the difference between myself and so many of the DMs in these forums. While I don't view D and D as a wargame, I do see it as a tactical game - and can remember (fondly a time when the escapist roleplayers weren't so dominant as they are now (and so quick to jump all over anyone with a differing view of what D and D is).