D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

lol love that quote @MichaelSomething. It really articulates the difference between myself and so many of the DMs in these forums. While I don't view D and D as a wargame, I do see it as a tactical game - and can remember a time when the escapist roleplayers weren't so dominant as they are now (and so quick to jump all over anyone with a differing view of what D and D is).
It is possible to be in both groups at once; and I'm not even sure the distinction is as great as that quote would indicate. (from what I can tell Pulsipher likes stirring the pot a little)

As both player and DM I like a game with silly elements, I see myself as an "escapist" if that means doing my best to see the game/story/setting through my characters' eyes, yet at the same time I agree that the DM shouldn't change things on the fly (though making things up on the fly if the party goes somewhere unexpected and therefore not prepared is fine) and that this means sometimes the party will cakewalk and other times they might get crushed.

The only part of all of that I really disagree with is that the DM should be thought of as a computer. A DM who is no more than, in effect, a CPU is likely to get bored out of her mind far too soon. What's really odd about saying this is I've had to say the same thing to the serious story-now nothing-is-prepared crowd, who are I think on the other end of the spectrum (such as there is) from where [MENTION=54380]shoak1[/MENTION] stands.

Lan-"I can see the game as a tactical game, but I don't play it that way - planning bores me very quickly"-efan
 

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It is possible to be in both groups at once; and I'm not even sure the distinction is as great as that quote would indicate....

I don't really see how anyone can be in both groups at once - either you think its OK to have content made or adjusted on the fly or you don't.

.....I agree that the DM shouldn't change things on the fly (though making things up on the fly if the party goes somewhere unexpected and therefore not prepared is fine) .......

I think that's kind of like saying you're a vegetarian who only eats meat when he's hungry.....You can't be in the sandbox and be compatible with this style of play. In this style of play, the players go where the (prepared) adventure is, not to some undeveloped country that needs to be generated on the fly by an omnipotent godlike person called the DM - because THAT in our opinion taints their agency.

The only part of all of that I really disagree with is that the DM should be thought of as a computer. A DM who is no more than, in effect, a CPU is likely to get bored out of her mind far too soon.

Why would a DM playing this way get bored? Taking off the omnipotent DM hat opens the door to a fun world of tactical challenge !!! Once I have crafted the scene and we are gathered and ready to play, I am not the "DM" any more - I am the bad guys, and usually that means I want to kill the PCs and use all the tactical skill I can to do so - u players better be on your game if you want to make it out of here alive lol. I don't fudge die rolls, pull my punches, or add monsters as needed. I get what I came with, and that's it.
 
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I don't really see how anyone can be in both groups at once - either you think its OK to have content made or adjusted on the fly or you don't.
Or you just do what you gotta do to make the game work.

I think that's kind of like saying you're a vegetarian who only eats meat when he's hungry.....You can't be in the sandbox and be compatible with this style of play. In this style of play, the players go where the (prepared) adventure is, not to some undeveloped country that needs to be generated on the fly by an omnipotent godlike person called the DM - because THAT in our opinion taints their agency.
Boy you have lawful players. :)

And I'm not even talking about an undeveloped country. What would you do in this case: you've left off last session with the party planning their assault on the BBEG; this would pretty much finish this adventure. For this session you've set up a big set-piece battle scenario (let's say it's the set-up you showed us earlier) and you're all set for a session-long combat and maybe some treasury division afterwards. The players - who may have been discussing their plans all week, for all that - arrive and settle in.

And due to their great planning, some freakishly lucky die rolls, and a few blown saves your BBEG goes down in half an hour (real time). They spend another half hour mopping up, looting, and leaving; they get back to town and spend another hour dividing their treasury and dealing with some downtime stuff - this is all consistent with what they've done before and you're more than ready for it.

And then, feeling thoroughly stoked at their success, they want to get out in the field and get right back at it in a new adventure

But now you don't have anything prepared - you just never in a hundred years thought they'd get this far this fast, and were sure you'd have at least another week to design the next adventure or even decide what it would be. You've half a session left. What happens now?

Why would a DM playing this way get bored? Taking off the omnipotent DM hat opens the door to a fun world of tactical challenge !!! Once I have crafted the scene and we are gathered and ready to play, I am not the "DM" any more - I am the bad guys, and usually that means I want to kill the PCs and use all the tactical skill I can to do so - u players better be on your game if you want to make it out of here alive lol. I don't fudge die rolls, pull my punches, or add monsters as needed. I get what I came with, and that's it.
Oh, same here. :) I don't add (or subtract) opponents or any of that stuff...and even then, I still have to hit the occasional curveball. To use the same example from above, their planning during the week might have led them to decide (rightly or wrongly) they're just not quite ready to face the BBEG yet - they think they need more help and so at the start of the session they bail out, go back to town, and do some recruiting. Suddenly I'm not running the big set-piece battle I expected, I'm rolling up NPCs! Meanwhile I have to think about how or if the dungeon will restock itself if they leave it alone for any length of time, etc., etc.

And yes, you're still the DM as well as being the bad guys in that you still have to make neutrally-applied rulings, provide narration, and do the other usual DM stuff.

Lan-"players are allowed to play their characters as they see fit, even if it wrecks the DM's best-laid plans"-efan
 

What would you do in this case: you've left off last session with the party planning their assault on the BBEG; ....And then, feeling thoroughly stoked at their success, they want to get out in the field and get right back at it in a new adventure...But now you don't have anything prepared ....What happens now?

Because our mindset is no adventure if no prepared adventure, we pull out a board game :) But I don't let that scenario happen often, I usually prep two sessions ahead.

.....their planning during the week might have led them to decide (rightly or wrongly) they're just not quite ready to face the BBEG yet - they think they need more help and so at the start of the session they bail out, go back to town, and do some recruiting. Suddenly I'm not running the big set-piece battle I expected, I'm rolling up NPCs! Meanwhile I have to think about how or if the dungeon will restock itself if they leave it alone for any length of time, etc., etc.

The players leave the balancing and steering to me, and I balance based on 5 players - but I always have contingencies written into my encounters that if I have 4 or 6 players to subtract/add certain monsters. So if a player can't make it, leaves early, or arrives late, we don't have a problem.

And yes, you're still the DM as well as being the bad guys in that you still have to make neutrally-applied rulings, provide narration, and do the other usual DM stuff.

Neutrally applied rulings do not have to come from the DM - I usually have a particular one of our players do player rulings ("Can I cast this spell, run over here, and jump across that chasm?"). My narration is provided by pre-written descriptions and 3D modelling. I put DCs in my write-ups to cover most all contingencies, including reinforcement times in complexes etc. Still, an occasional ruling peeks in, but I'm usually successful in avoiding all but a couple minor ones per session. So I always strive to be free to focus on playing the monsters, although if 7 guys unexpectedly show up, I will delegate their play away as well. We've all played dozens of board games together, so we are no stranger to changing sides lol :)
 
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I don't really see how anyone can be in both groups at once - either you think its OK to have content made or adjusted on the fly or you don't.

The two camps that [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] was speaking about were those who prefer to play in a tactical manner, such as you, and those that enjoy "escapist roleplaying". This wasn't necessarily about changing content or not. And I don't see why people can't view the game as a tactical game, and also as escapist roleplay. I feel like my game incorporates both.


I think that's kind of like saying you're a vegetarian who only eats meat when he's hungry.....You can't be in the sandbox and be compatible with this style of play. In this style of play, the players go where the (prepared) adventure is, not to some undeveloped country that needs to be generated on the fly by an omnipotent godlike person called the DM - because THAT in our opinion taints their agency.

Meh, agency is being "tainted" either way. Sure, you can say that a DM making content up on the fly could minimize the PCs' agency. I don't think that it must do so, but it certainly could. But your style is no less guilty. They must proceed in the manner expected by your pre-written adventure. That is a limitation on their agency. Now, your players may not mind it at all, so it may not be an issue for your group, but that doesn't mean you can dismiss it.

This is why I think that games can utilize elements of both styles. Why can't they? I mean, I can design an adventure with a linear section followed by a sandbox section pretty easily.....let's say they have to take a road to get to the "lost valley". The road is linear, the valley is an open environment.

I think there are so many examples of this that I cannot even really understand your insistence that they cannot coexist.

Why would a DM playing this way get bored? Taking off the omnipotent DM hat opens the door to a fun world of tactical challenge !!! Once I have crafted the scene and we are gathered and ready to play, I am not the "DM" any more - I am the bad guys, and usually that means I want to kill the PCs and use all the tactical skill I can to do so - u players better be on your game if you want to make it out of here alive lol. I don't fudge die rolls, pull my punches, or add monsters as needed. I get what I came with, and that's it.

Okay....but have you not ever made a mistake in what you've prepared? What if you realize that you have made an encounter that is unintentionally far too challenging? How do you handle that when it happens?

Don't get me wrong....I throw encounters that are beyond my PCs from a combat perspective from time to time. But I do it to remind them that sometimes combat is not the answer, and there are always ways past such incredibly difficult combats. But that's a benefit of a more open approach. In a very linear style, it may very well be that there is one route to progress to the next part of the story....and if that one route is blicked by an unintentionally difficult encounter, then the PCs may very well be screwed.

As a DM, do you try to correct such a situation or do you just play the villains to the hilt and crush the PCs?

The players leave the balancing and steering to me, and I balance based on 5 players - but I always have contingencies written into my encounters that if I have 4 or 6 players to subtract/add certain monsters. So if a player can't make it, leaves early, or arrives late, we don't have a problem.

So you are willing to adjust encounters based on the prevailing circumstances at the table....how is that really different from what others have said? Do you limit such changes to be based on the number of players only? Are there other factors that may warrant such changes? Do you only allow changes that you've considered and written beforehand?

You use the "omniscient DM" comment as a joke a lot....but it sounds like you must be one in order to never make a mistake along these lines....

Neutrally applied rulings do not have to come from the DM - I usually have a particular one of our players do player rulings ("Can I cast this spell, run over here, and jump across that chasm?"). My narration is provided by pre-written descriptions and 3D modelling. I put DCs in my write-ups to cover most all contingencies, including reinforcement times in complexes etc. Still, an occasional ruling peeks in, but I'm usually successful in avoiding all but a couple minor ones per session. So I always strive to be free to focus on playing the monsters, although if 7 guys unexpectedly show up, I will delegate their play away as well. We've all played dozens of board games together, so we are no stranger to changing sides lol :)

I find it interesting that you delegate to a player for rulings. I don't think there's anything wrong with that....but since I've seen you question a DM's impartiality, I am surprised to see you rely on a players impartiality for rulings. Surely if a player can be impartial, so can a DM, no?
 

A DM who is no more than, in effect, a CPU is likely to get bored out of her mind far too soon.

DM engagement aside, I'd rather play a CRPG on my PC than be a player in a session with a DM that isn't willing to improvise some content or make rulings in the gray areas when the party decides to color outside the lines. If you're severely restricting my dynamic engagement, at least give me some nice graphics and immersive audio to help facilitate a convincing illusion for a few hours.
 

Because our mindset is no adventure if no prepared adventure, we pull out a board game :)
That would annoy me to no end, were I a player in such a situation...we're all enthusiastic about getting on with the game, a-a-and it shuts down.

But I don't let that scenario happen often, I usually prep two sessions ahead.
Fair enough.

The players leave the balancing and steering to me, and I balance based on 5 players - but I always have contingencies written into my encounters that if I have 4 or 6 players to subtract/add certain monsters. So if a player can't make it, leaves early, or arrives late, we don't have a problem.
OK, now we're going down a different rabbit hole. If a player's not there, what happens to that person's character? Does it just arbitrarily vanish? Or - much more realistically - is it still in the party and still able to contribute just the same as if it had a player attached?

Also, every encounter being that finely balanced could get dull after a while - it's fun to have some now and then that are complete pushovers and some others that we just can't win.

Lanefan
 

Maybe this has been brought up but this reminds me of when EGG posted here and was talking about players going off the path. He was talking about when he’s prepped an adventure area, dungeon, caverns, etc, and then players would be “nah, we are going to just wander over here and do this” where he had nothing prepared. And his response was pretty much "well I’ve got this area I’ve put together since you guys said you wanted to do some dungeon bashing but now you don’t, so my work is maybe wasted and I have nothing setup there so I guess that is the end of the session for tonight”. Many cried foul. I can see it both ways and can run both ways but honestly things are going to be more fun where I had time to work on stuff and would prefer to go there.
 

It is possible to be in both groups at once; and I'm not even sure the distinction is as great as that quote would indicate. (from what I can tell Pulsipher likes stirring the pot a little)
Any theory that starts "D&D players can be divided into two groups..." is off to a bad start. At least he didn't decide to arbitrarily label one group 'Roleplayers.'

I don't really see how anyone can be in both groups at once - either you think its OK to have content made or adjusted on the fly or you don't.
That's not the only distinction, but, you can be OK with making stuff up ahead of time & sticking to it, and OK with making stuff up on the fly. You can enjoy both the 'escapist' and 'wargaming' aspects D&D.

I mean, you can divide any group into two groups, those who like to create divisive false dichotomies to manufacture conflict where none need exist...

I think that's kind of like saying you're a vegetarian who only eats meat when he's hungry....
You don't have to be a vegetarian to eat vegetables.

The two camps that [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] was speaking about were those who prefer to play in a tactical manner, such as you, and those that enjoy "escapist..."
Roleplaying can have both a tactical and an escapist element. In fact, it's a little hard for me to imagine completely eschewing either. Even in a game with no combat, there will be challenges to overcome and approaches to be chosen among, 'tactical' is often used metaphorically outside of actual battle for a reason. And any game can be an escape...

OK, now we're going down a different rabbit hole. If a player's not there, what happens to that person's character? Does it just arbitrarily vanish?
Sure, maybe he fell down a rabbit-hole. ;) Maybe he's scouting. Maybe he was distracted by something in another room, or caught in a trap. Maybe he's 'guarding the horses...'
;P

Or - much more realistically - is it still in the party and still able to contribute just the same as if it had a player attached?
It's like you two have swapped sides in the argument at this point. Nicely illustrates being in both groups, I think.

Also, every encounter being that finely balanced could get dull after a while - it's fun to have some now and then that are complete pushovers and some others that we just can't win.
So, when someone says "I balanced all these encounter for 5 players" that doesn't mean they're all going to be equally difficult encounters - some may be balanced to be easy for a party of 5, some to be very difficult for the same party.

Whether you're aiming for tactical challenges or telling a story (or both), adjusting the encounter if you have 4 or 6 party members instead can make some sense...
 
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