Revised Ranger update

Informed consent. The human can give it; the animal cannot -- unless you awaken every companion or do something similar with magic, I suppose..

So you're saying they don't have informed consent to fight at all as an animal companion that takes orders from you? That they do not appreciate the concept of death? If that is the case you're essentially arguing the entire subclass isn't just underpowered but inherently evil as written right now.

Also, the nature of the draft would tend to run counter to informed consent for war as well.
 

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So you're saying they don't have informed consent to fight at all as an animal companion that takes orders from you? That they do not appreciate the concept of death? If that is the case you're essentially arguing the entire subclass isn't just underpowered but inherently evil as written right now.

Also, the nature of the draft would tend to run counter to informed consent for war as well.

You asked why people are more upset about the use of animals than recruited human soldiers. I answered.

Fundamentally, the animals are considered 'innocent' as in not capable of giving consent because of mental deficiency.

Conscription/draft still requires some level of consent (hence dodging and conscientious objection) as well as some level of societal imperative which provides a basis of legitimacy. This somewhat applies to animals as well - e.g. cavalry horses. Note that cavalry horses are/were treated much more like companions by their riders and not offered up as sacrifice. People as a whole tend to view co-opting animals for other dangerous/direct combat roles (dogs, dolphins, whatever) as inappropriate/mean.

Does this make the subclass as a whole evil? *Shrug* don't care.
 

So I did a quick template on my 12th level PCs cat familiar using the companion homebrew and it gave me:

S3. D16. C10. I6. W13. Ch7.
HD 5d4, hp 15
AC:13 (AC16 when taking the Dodge action)
Speed: 45', Climb 35'
Darkvision 30'
Archetype: scout
Skills: Perception +5 (Advantage on Perception checks using smell), Stealth +11
Saves: Wisdom +5 (Advantage on Wisdom saves within 10' of mistress)
Co-operation: Use Help action to aid mistress as a bonus action
Attacks: Claws +2 to hit, 1 damage
Talents :
Acute Senses (No advantage to attack beast if stealthed)
Expertise (Stealth)
Slink Away: (Use reaction to move half speed and Hide)
Swiftness: (+5 movement)

A Beast Companion (admittedly a cat makes a terrible beast companion) for a level 12 Ranger could be:

S3. D18. C10. I3. W14. Ch7.
HD 5d4, hp 60
AC:18 (AC18 when taking the Dodge action)
Speed: 45', Climb 35'
Darkvision 30'
Archetype: scout
Skills: Acrobatics +7, Perception +5, Stealth +11
Saves: Wisdom +5 (Advantage on Wisdom saves within 10' of mistress)
Co-operation: Use Help action to aid mistress as a bonus action
Exceptional Training :
Attacks: Claws x2 +3, 5 damage
Talents :
Acute Senses (No advantage to attack beast if stealthed)
Expertise (Stealth)
Slink Away: (Use reaction to move half speed and Hide)
Swiftness: (+5 movement)

Even layering on the extra hit dice to Ranger companion would not be unbalancing considering that hp loss seems to be part of their problem.
 

You are conflating two disparate things I was commenting on. Different topics. The cantrip idea was an alternative to using many companions, not something I'd combine with that concept. It's the opposite, as you noted. So...did you have a thought on it?

Apologies, when you asked "would it change your perspective on how the Beastmaster Ranger is supposed to view their companion?" I thought you were continuing the same line of thought.

I think it is a fine little ability, not sure it helps the PHB Beastmaster with some of their bigger issues in the action economy. But, if one of your big problems is the companion dying too often, this is a nice work around.



Enchanters would differ. Necromancers often kill the things they animate, so I am betting their animates would differ as well. Regardless, this is again down to tone and alignment, not rules questions. You don't seem to have a rules objection to what I wrote?

I do find it odd that people seem perfectly comfortable with the idea that a nation would recruit young humans to fight and die to protect that nation, replacing those who fall with new troops on a routine basis, but the idea that you'd do the same with animals is somehow not a fair concept for a fantasy game? The animal knows there will be risk of death, and routinely fighting in highly dangerous situations. Why is that so dissimilar to a General recruiting new toops and replacing them as their previous ones fall? Why is the concept of fungibility of animal companions so anathema to the Ranger concept?


You know, I wondered why you put enchanters into that list, double checked and I once more was getting Enchantment and Transmutation mixed up. But let's tackle these in some semblance of an order.

I have no disagreement in your interpretation of RAW. Like you said this is all a tone and morality question.

Enchanters mind control people. There is not a spell that allows them to control another person or beast until the 5th level spell "Dominate Person" and that only lasts for a minute. So, you will not have a long term fighting companion as an enchanter most of the time, usually they will end up simply turning someone who was trying to kill them against the other enemies. Since it was kill or be killed, you have few qualms about that in general. Now, if you are constantly mind controlling the blacksmith into fighting for you, removing his own will, we've veered hard into evil territory, and that is a for the DM and table to discuss the tone and what they find acceptable at the table.


Necromancers do often raise the bodies of those they killed, but again this starts with a life or death struggle. A person was trying to kill them, they failed, and then the necromancer utilizes their remains. However, everyone would generally acknowledge that the created zombie or skeleton is not the same as the individual killed, and is not a being with their own will and mind. They are no longer living, and if a person murdered the waitress simply to create a zombie servant, we are back into hard evil territory as opposed to utilizing the body of that orc that tried to decapitate you.


As to your final paragraph as to the difference between a nation and the ranger, I bolded the part you got completely wrong. The animal does not know there is a high risk of death. Most animals do not have the mental capacity to consider the future in that manner, nor can they end up protesting as a young soldier might do. Also, conscripting young men into a meat grinder war is not something that is generally viewed favorably by a nations populace, unless the war itself is highly supported. In which case the young men might volunteer seeing it as a duty towards their people. We are talking an entirely different set of standards here. To get closer to what we are talking about with a ranger constantly luring animals into fighting and dying for them, we would probably need to devolve into talking about child soldiers, since the smartest animals are generally closest in comparison to young children. And, once more, we delve into hard evil territory if we talk about a nation recruiting child soldiers into an endless war.


So, once more, from my perspective, there is nothing wrong with your interpretation of the rules of the game. However, there are some serious moral implications to utilizing a constant stream of living, feeling creatures to die simply to save your own hide. And those moral implications go completely against the traditional view of the Ranger and their Animal Companion in the fantasy setting.



So you're saying they don't have informed consent to fight at all as an animal companion that takes orders from you? That they do not appreciate the concept of death? If that is the case you're essentially arguing the entire subclass isn't just underpowered but inherently evil as written right now.

Also, the nature of the draft would tend to run counter to informed consent for war as well.


The nature of the draft does, which is part of why the draft was so reviled.

As for the entire subclass, yeah, it could be argued to skirt that line of acceptability. But, a single companion and a powerful bond between the character and the companion where both strive to protect and help the other is a very different type of situation than the ranger who sends "wolf #7" into the fight knowing that after they die they will just walk into the woods and convince "wolf #8" to fight with them. That becomes heavily exploitative and pushes it over the edge.

And that is the line that I'm arguing about. The difference between having a single companion and devoting resources to keeping them alive and well, and just having a conveyor belt of disposable bodies. It is actually one of the things I really like about the Revised Ranger's design is that there is some sort of mystic bond between the Ranger and their animal companion which allows the ranger to call them back from the dead if the worst happens. The way we interpreted that in my home game was that the two had bonded their very souls, and that as long as one lived, the other lived within them. Luckily the ranger never died during that campaign, but I could see it being easier to raise them as long as their companion lived, but that would require a house rule.
 

Also the traditional image of the beast master is a guy with his wolf or tiger (with a couple of ferrets and an eagle--serious how did find familiar not get on the ranger's spell list?), and wolves and tigers are pretty. Don't discount the power of cute! If the image was of a ranger with a nasty feral hog or crocodile AC, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

In the first world, most people tend to encounter animals as pets or pests, and utility animals are fairly rare. That means that a lot of people don't have the experience of valuing an animal for what it can do as much as an existential regard. From that mindset, a ranger that allows his/her AC to die is in fact Michael Vick evil. This has grown over the years, so the "animal companion as minesweeper" so common in the 1980's and '90's is abhorrent to a lot of people now. I think WotC underestimated how much the survivability (as opposed to replaceability) of the AC meant to a lot of people. If they had put on the fig leaf of "the beast master summons a fey spirit and makes it into an animal companion", things might be different (or not).
 

You asked why people are more upset about the use of animals than recruited human soldiers. I answered.

Fundamentally, the animals are considered 'innocent' as in not capable of giving consent because of mental deficiency.

Your answer doesn't address the question however. Right now, under existing rules, your animal companion fights for you, and may die. Indeed, that's the major complaint, they die too easily. So discard any change in tone or alignment, discard my argument about using animal companions up more often, just as they are played right now under your argument it would be unethical to play a beastmaster Ranger. Just full stop, taking an "innocent" panther into the depths of a dungeon at certain risk of harmful and painful fighting and possible death, that is currently unethical and a good aligned character simply should never play a beastmaster Ranger.

You can see the problem with this perspective now, right?
 

Your answer doesn't address the question however. Right now, under existing rules, your animal companion fights for you, and may die. Indeed, that's the major complaint, they die too easily. So discard any change in tone or alignment, discard my argument about using animal companions up more often, just as they are played right now under your argument it would be unethical to play a beastmaster Ranger. Just full stop, taking an "innocent" panther into the depths of a dungeon at certain risk of harmful and painful fighting and possible death, that is currently unethical and a good aligned character simply should never play a beastmaster Ranger.

You can see the problem with this perspective now, right?


I can see the problem when using a 21st century urban viewpoint, yes. I grew up on a farm. We ate our chickens. Cows and pigs came in little and left much bigger destined for slaughter. There was fresh meat in the fridge. I'm used to seeing some animals as exploitable resources.

I see the collection/taming of a dangerous beast and its use in the field as more neutral. Evil would be reserved for wilful infliction of pain/mistreatment for the pleasure of its master.
 

I can see the problem when using a 21st century urban viewpoint, yes. I grew up on a farm. We ate our chickens. Cows and pigs came in little and left much bigger destined for slaughter. There was fresh meat in the fridge. I'm used to seeing some animals as exploitable resources.

I see the collection/taming of a dangerous beast and its use in the field as more neutral. Evil would be reserved for wilful infliction of pain/mistreatment for the pleasure of its master.

I'm a vegetarian living in urban Los Angeles in the 21st century, and *I* am the one advocating animal companions were likely intended as more of an exploitable resource which frequently was replaced over a long rest.
 

I'm a vegetarian living in urban Los Angeles in the 21st century, and *I* am the one advocating animal companions were likely intended as more of an exploitable resource which frequently was replaced over a long rest.

I don't disagree with your stance at all. It is eminently plausible. People in general like their furry friends and object to seeing them as merely expendable dragon fodder. It offends their sensibilities. If you press someone as to why, the answer is typically the one I gave above.


*ETA:

I don't see the wilful collection of dangerous beasts and using them as infecting the subclass with evil. It seems to be more neutral (I'll take this danger and make it into a tool -- even if it is likely to break soon enough).
 
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Very few D&D gamers are professional farmers who view animals as "exploitative resources".

If they designed the Beastmaster for this audience they... need their mental health checked.

The Beastmaster class emphatically needs a pet that doesn't die and takes its own action.

Anything less than this and the design is a hard failure.

Given this, the best solution is to give up on balancing the subclass and instead make it DM optional.

When balance is paramount effectively having two characters is too strong, and the subclass should be disregarded.

In every other case, this is the solution that players want.
 

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