5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
Inspired by the @lowkey13 thread of "sameyness", @TwoSix, myself, and hopefully others are working on revising the spell lists and roles of some of the classes. If you want to see the original thread, it is here:


To begin with, the "Big 3" casters are Cleric, Druid, and Wizard. Half-casters under each are Paladin, Ranger, and Sorcerer, respectively. Warlocks and Bards will be dealt with separately, but mostly Warlocks will do more with Eldritch Invocations and Bards will have access to all spell lists as a half-caster as well. Each aspect will be dealt with in time.

The first focus is to take all the spells and organize them into the Big 3 lists. I will update this OP as progress is made. Commonly, I will continue to use the notation for myself and TwoSix when we have different views as (myself/TwoSix). Part of my goal, at least, is to have spell lists that are fairly balanced in the number of spells

This is the final "first" draft. It will be returned to and tweaked later.

PLEASE NOTE: This OP now reflects my compiled lists after disucssion with other forum members, most notably @TwoSix, @Tony Vargas, @vincegetorix, and others. Thank you all for your feedback and contributions. If you have compiled lists you would like to add, post them and I will update this OP with a link to your lists.

Wizards and Bards are the "universal" spell casters and can choose spells from any list. Bards will be half-casters, limited to level 5 spells.

I realize the versatility this lends this class is very powerful, but Wizards get little else in terms of class features and Bards being reduced to half-casters balances it out IMO.

Total Spells: 158

Cantrips:
  1. Blade Ward
  2. Light
  3. Mage Hand
  4. Mending
  5. Message
  6. Minor Illusion
  7. Prestidigitation
1st Level:
  1. Alarm
  2. Arcane Weapon
  3. Arms of Hadar
  4. Burning Hands
  5. Catapult
  6. Chaos Bolt
  7. Chromatic Orb
  8. Color Spray
  9. Comprehend Languages
  10. Detect Magic
  11. Disguise Self
  12. Expeditious Retreat
  13. Feather Fall
  14. Find Familiar
  15. Grease
  16. Identify
  17. Illusory Script
  18. Mage Armor
  19. Magic Missile
  20. Shield
  21. Silent Image
  22. Sleep
  23. Tasha's Hideous Laughter
  24. Tenser's Floating Disk
  25. Thunderwave
  26. Unseen Servant
2nd Level:
  1. Aganazzar's Scorcher
  2. Arcane Lock
  3. Blur
  4. Cloud of Daggers
  5. Continual Flame
  6. Crown of Madness
  7. Darkness
  8. Dragon's Breath
  9. Enlarge/Reduce
  10. Invisibility
  11. Knock
  12. Levitate
  13. Locate Object
  14. Magic Mouth
  15. Magic Weapon
  16. Melf's Acid Arrow
  17. Mirror Image
  18. Misty Step
  19. Nystul's Magic Aura
  20. Phantasmal Force
  21. Pyrotechnics
  22. Rope Trick
  23. Scorching Ray
  24. See Invisibility
  25. Shadow Blade
  26. Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
  27. Spider Climb
  28. Web
3rd Level:
  1. Blink
  2. Catnap
  3. Clairvoyance
  4. Counterspell
  5. Dispel Magic
  6. Enemies Abound
  7. Fireball
  8. Fly
  9. Gaseous Form
  10. Haste
  11. Hunger of Hadar
  12. Hypnotic Pattern
  13. Leomund's Tiny Hut
  14. Lightning Bolt
  15. Major Image
  16. Melf's Minute Meteors
  17. Nondetection
  18. Phantom Steed
  19. Sending
  20. Slow
  21. Stinking Cloud
  22. Tiny Servant
  23. Vampiric Touch
4th Level:
  1. Arcane Eye
  2. Conjure Minor Elementals
  3. Dimension Door
  4. Evard's Black Tentacles
  5. Fabricate
  6. Fire Shield
  7. Greater Invisibility
  8. Hallucinatory Terrain
  9. Leomund's Secret Chest
  10. Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
  11. Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
  12. Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
  13. Phantasmal Killer
  14. Polymorph
  15. Shadow of Moil
  16. Stoneskin
  17. Vitriolic Sphere
5th Level:
  1. Animate Objects
  2. Bigby's Hand
  3. Cloudkill
  4. Cone of Cold
  5. Contact Other Plane
  6. Creation
  7. Dream
  8. Enervation
  9. Far Step
  10. Legend Lore
  11. Mislead
  12. Modify Memory
  13. Passwall
  14. Planar Binding
  15. Rary's Telepathic Bond
  16. Seeming
  17. Synaptic Static
  18. Telekinesis
  19. Teleportation Circle
  20. Wall of Force
6th Level:
  1. Arcane Gate
  2. Chain Lightning
  3. Contingency
  4. Create Homunculus
  5. Disintegrate
  6. Drawmij's Instant Summons
  7. Forbiddance
  8. Globe of Invulnerability
  9. Guards and Wards
  10. Move Earth
  11. Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
  12. Otto's Irresistible Dance
  13. Programmed Illusion
  14. Scatter
  15. Tenser's Transformation
7th Level:
  1. Delayed Blast Fireball
  2. Etherealness
  3. Forcecage
  4. Mirage Arcane
  5. Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
  6. Mordenkainen's Sword
  7. Prismatic Spray
  8. Project Image
  9. Sequester
  10. Teleport
8th Level:
  1. Antimagic Field
  2. Clone
  3. Demiplane
  4. Illusory Dragon
  5. Maddening Darkness
  6. Maze
  7. Mighty Fortress
9th Level:
  1. Astral Projection
  2. Imprisonment
  3. Invulnerability
  4. Prismatic Wall
  5. Time Stop
  6. Wish

Total: 139

Cantrips:
  1. Friends
  2. Guidance
  3. Resistance
  4. Spare the Dying
  5. Thaumaturgy
  6. True Strike
1st Level:
  1. Armor of Agathys
  2. Bane
  3. Bless
  4. Cause Fear
  5. Ceremony
  6. Command
  7. Compelled Duel
  8. Cure Wounds
  9. Detect Evil and Good
  10. Dissonant Whispers
  11. Divine Favor
  12. Guiding Bolt
  13. Healing Word
  14. Hellish Rebuke
  15. Heroism
  16. Hex
  17. Protection from Evil and Good
  18. Purify Food and Drink
  19. Sanctuary
  20. Searing Smite
  21. Shield of Faith
  22. Thunderous Smite
  23. Wrathful Smite
2nd Level:
  1. Aid
  2. Augury
  3. Blindness/Deafness
  4. Branding Smite
  5. Calm Emotions
  6. Darkvision
  7. Detect Thoughts
  8. Enhance Ability
  9. Enthrall
  10. Find Steed
  11. Find Traps
  12. Gentle Repose
  13. Hold Person
  14. Lesser Restoration
  15. Mind Spike
  16. Prayer of Healing
  17. Ray of Enfeeblement
  18. Silence
  19. Spiritual Weapon
  20. Suggestion
  21. Warding Bond
  22. Zone of Truth
3rd Level:
  1. Animate Dead
  2. Aura of Vitality
  3. Beacon of Hope
  4. Bestow Curse
  5. Blinding Smite
  6. Create Food and Water
  7. Crusader's Mantle
  8. Fear
  9. Glyph of Warding
  10. Life Transference
  11. Magic Circle
  12. Mass Healing Word
  13. Remove Curse
  14. Revivify
  15. Speak with Dead
  16. Spirit Guardians
  17. Summon Lesser Demons
  18. Tongues
  19. Water Walk
4th Level:
  1. Aura of Life​
  2. Aura of Purity​
  3. Banishment​
  4. Compulsion​
  5. Confusion​
  6. Death Ward​
  7. Divination​
  8. Find Greater Steed​
  9. Guardian of Faith​
  10. Locate Creature​
  11. Sickening Radiance​
  12. Staggering Smite​
  13. Storm Sphere​
  14. Summon Greater Demon​
5th Level:
  1. Banishing Smite
  2. Circle of Power
  3. Commune
  4. Danse Macabre
  5. Dawn
  6. Destructive Wave
  7. Dispel Evil and Good
  8. Dominate Person
  9. Flame Strike
  10. Geas
  11. Greater Restoration
  12. Hallow
  13. Hold Monster
  14. Holy Weapon
  15. Infernal Calling
  16. Mass Cure Wounds
  17. Raise Dead
  18. Skill Empowerment
  19. Wall of Light
6th Level:
  1. Blade Barrier
  2. Circle of Death
  3. Create Undead
  4. Find the Path
  5. Harm
  6. Heal
  7. Heroes' Feast
  8. Magic Jar
  9. Mass Suggestion
  10. Mental Prison
  11. Planar Ally
  12. Soul Cage
  13. True Seeing
  14. Word of Recall
7th Level:
  1. Conjure Celestial
  2. Crown of Stars
  3. Divine Word
  4. Plane Shift
  5. Power Word Pain
  6. Resurrection
  7. Symbol
  8. Temple of the Gods
8th Level:
  1. Antipathy/Sympathy
  2. Dominate Monster
  3. Glibness
  4. Holy Aura
  5. Mind Blank
  6. Power Word Stun
  7. Telepathy
9th Level:
  1. Foresight
  2. Gate
  3. Mass Heal
  4. Power Word Heal
  5. Power Word Kill
  6. Psychic Scream
  7. True Resurrection

Total: 140

Cantrips:
  1. Control Flames
  2. Dancing Lights
  3. Druidcraft
  4. Gust
  5. Mold Earth
  6. Shape Water
  7. Shillelagh
1st Level:
  1. Absorb Elements
  2. Animal Friendship
  3. Beast Bond
  4. Charm Person
  5. Create or Destroy Water
  6. Detect Poison and Disease
  7. Earth Tremor
  8. Ensnaring Strike
  9. Entangle
  10. Faerie Fire
  11. False Life
  12. Fog Cloud
  13. Goodberry
  14. Hail of Thorns
  15. Hunter's Mark
  16. Ice Knife
  17. Inflict Wounds
  18. Jump
  19. Longstrider
  20. Ray of Sickness
  21. Snare
  22. Speak with Animals
  23. Witch Bolt
  24. Zephyr Strike
2nd Level:
  1. Alter Self
  2. Animal Messenger
  3. Barkskin
  4. Beast Sense
  5. Cordon of Arrows
  6. Dust Devil
  7. Earthbind
  8. Flame Blade
  9. Flaming Sphere
  10. Gust of Wind
  11. Healing Spirit
  12. Heat Metal
  13. Locate Animals or Plants
  14. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp
  15. Moonbeam
  16. Pass without Trace
  17. Protection from Poison
  18. Shatter
  19. Skywrite
  20. Spike Growth
  21. Warding Wind
3rd Level:
  1. Call Lightning
  2. Conjure Animals
  3. Conjure Barrage
  4. Daylight
  5. Elemental Weapon
  6. Erupting Earth
  7. Feign Death
  8. Flame Arrows
  9. Lightning Arrow
  10. Meld into Stone
  11. Plant Growth
  12. Protection from Energy
  13. Sleet Storm
  14. Speak with Plants
  15. Thunder Step
  16. Tidal Wave
  17. Wall of Sand
  18. Wall of Water
  19. Water Breathing
  20. Wind Wall
4th Level:
  1. Blight
  2. Charm Monster
  3. Conjure Woodland Beings
  4. Control Water
  5. Dominate Beast
  6. Elemental Bane
  7. Freedom of Movement
  8. Giant Insect
  9. Grasping Vine
  10. Guardian of Nature
  11. Ice Storm
  12. Stone Shape
  13. Wall of Fire
  14. Watery Sphere
5th Level:
  1. Antilife Shell
  2. Awaken
  3. Commune with Nature
  4. Conjure Elemental
  5. Conjure Volley
  6. Contagion
  7. Control Winds
  8. Immolation
  9. Insect Plague
  10. Maelstrom
  11. Negative Energy Flood
  12. Reincarnate
  13. Scrying
  14. Steel Wind Strike
  15. Swift Quiver
  16. Transmute Rock
  17. Tree Stride
  18. Wall of Stone
  19. Wrath of Nature
6th Level:
  1. Bones of the Earth
  2. Conjure Fey
  3. Druid Grove
  4. Eyebite
  5. Flesh to Stone
  6. Investiture of Flame
  7. Investiture of Ice
  8. Investiture of Stone
  9. Investiture of Wind
  10. Primordial Ward
  11. Sunbeam
  12. Transport via Plants
  13. Wall of Ice
  14. Wall of Thorns
  15. Wind Walk
7th Level:
  1. Finger of Death
  2. Fire Storm
  3. Regenerate
  4. Reverse Gravity
  5. Simulacrum
  6. Whirlwind
8th Level:
  1. Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
  2. Animal Shapes
  3. Control Weather
  4. Earthquake
  5. Feeblemind
  6. Incendiary Cloud
  7. Sunburst
  8. Tsunami
9th Level:
  1. Mass Polymorph
  2. Meteor Swarm
  3. Shapechange
  4. Storm of Vengeance
  5. True Polymorph
  6. Weird

Here is the list by @vincegetorix :
 
Last edited:
To begin with, the "Big 3" casters are Cleric, Druid, and Wizard. Half-casters under each are Paladin, Ranger, and Sorcerer, respectively.
The Sorcerer freak'n casts 9th level spells, it is not a half-caster. It might again be a Class-Tier 2 full caster, compare to your all-Tier-1-again Big 3, but it's a full caster.

However, the EK & AT both cast wizard spells while mostly grinding DPR in their own ways, so they'd correspond pretty closely the Pally & Ranger, that way.

The first focus is to take all the spells and organize them into the Big 3 lists. I will update this OP as progress is made.
I probably shouldn't point this out, but y'all are re-inventing the 4e concept of Source.

Cleric = Divine
Druid = Primal
Wizard = Arcane
 

jmucchiello

Adventurer
It's also the PF2 design space. They have a fourth called Mystic, for stuff like witches and hedge wizards.

And I think it is brilliant for expansion purposes. If you have a small number of spell lists that each class picks from, then you when you add a spell to the Arcane list, it boosts all arcane casters, not just wizards or sorcerers or warlocks.

But this thread seems like an even bigger rewrite.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
The Sorcerer freak'n casts 9th level spells, it is not a half-caster. It might again be a Class-Tier 2 full caster, compare to your all-Tier-1-again Big 3, but it's a full caster.

However, the EK & AT both cast wizard spells while mostly grinding DPR in their own ways, so they'd correspond pretty closely the Pally & Ranger, that way.
This is potentially a bigger rewrite than just the spell lists. Sorcerer would be modified to be less wizard-like, and more about high expenditure of lower level effects.

In theory, at least. I'm still on the fence about whether bard or sorcerer should fill the arcane half-caster spot, but I'm comfortable with sorcerer for the time being.

I probably shouldn't point this out, but y'all are re-inventing the 4e concept of Source.

Cleric = Divine
Druid = Primal
Wizard = Arcane
That's because it's a really good idea! There's a reason PF2 borrowed it (and added occult), after all.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
@dnd4vr

I think the cantrip list looks good. Only tweak I would suggest is moving Light to Wizard (it seems really iconic, dating back to Raistlin using it with the Staff of Magius) and True Strike to Cleric. It makes True Strike more of a "Patron diety, guide my blade!" sort of thing, which seems like it works for Cleric.
 
I'd agree, light is pretty iconic as a Wizard thing. Mind you, mixing utility cantrips as a representation of 'basic magical manipulation wouldn't be awful. If you remove the argument from history I get why you slotted it in Cleric though.
 
I think going spell by spell division by class will end up putting spells in lists they don't really fit and pull spells from classes they match well with. Insteadpells could be tied to a nonclass grouping based on an iconic characteristic or category: Life, Death, Civil, Primal, Animal, Plant, Light, Darkness, Arcane, Divine. Then give each caster a set of these groupings

Cleric: Life, Death, Divine, + Domain
Druid: Animal, Plant, Primal,

Or make supercategories like power sources and give some classes all access to all the sub- category and some partial

Druid: All of Primal
Ranger: Animal and Plant from Primal and Divination from Arcana
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
@dnd4vr

I think the cantrip list looks good. Only tweak I would suggest is moving Light to Wizard (it seems really iconic, dating back to Raistlin using it with the Staff of Magius) and True Strike to Cleric. It makes True Strike more of a "Patron diety, guide my blade!" sort of thing, which seems like it works for Cleric.
I was also thinking of Gandalf in LotR ("Let's risk a bit more light" or whatever it was) for giving Wizard's Light. I originally had True Strike with Cleric, so that is good to me. It seems odd not having Cleric with Light, though, but compromises and rethinking is needed of course. I'll update and finalize the cantrip list now.
 
It seems odd not having Cleric with Light, though, but compromises and rethinking is needed of course. I'll update and finalize the cantrip list now.
You can let them make light in different ways:

Wizard: Dancing Lights, Continual Flame
Cleric: Light, Daylight
Druid: Produce Flame, Moonbeam.
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
You can let them make light in different ways:

Wizard: Dancing Lights, Continual Flame
Cleric: Light, Daylight
Druid: Produce Flame, Moonbeam.
If we had kept Produce Flame, I would have suggested something along those lines, but since we removed all damage cantrips, it was removed as well.
 
If we had kept Produce Flame, I would have suggested something along those lines, but since we removed all damage cantrips, it was removed as well.
You could just remove the damage potential from it. Light fires, but not do significant fire damage to creatures, for instance.

Or, you could move a toned-down Faerie Fire to a cantrip.
 

TheCosmicKid

Adventurer
I probably shouldn't point this out, but y'all are re-inventing the 4e concept of Source.

Cleric = Divine
Druid = Primal
Wizard = Arcane
Um... 4E? I've got a stack of older books with titles like Complete Arcane and Complete Divine that your hypothesis has trouble explaining.

And as far as mechanical implementation of this concept goes, the idea on this thread sounds a heck of a lot more like PF2 (where sources actually matter for spell selection) than 4E (where every class is unique irrespective of source).
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
You could just remove the damage potential from it. Light fires, but not do significant fire damage to creatures, for instance.

Or, you could move Faerie Fire to a cantrip.
I wouldn't mind removing the damage rider for Produce Flame (or even using Create Bonfire instead, but Produce Flame would represent a portable source). I think Faerie Fire would be too strong as a cantrip.

@TwoSix :

What do you think of a non-damage (or low-damage, like 1 point of fire damage) Produce Flame cantrip? We could give that to Druids, Light to Clerics, and Dancing Lights to Wizard?
 

TheCosmicKid

Adventurer
Dialing it back from granting advantage to canceling disadvantage might do it. Or even just canceling obscurement effects.
It'd have to be single target. Light source, but with a smaller illumination radius than light. It could still light up invisible things, but maybe you have to throw it at them with a spell attack.
 
It'd have to be single target. Light source, but with a smaller illumination radius than light. It could still light up invisible things, but maybe you have to throw it at them with a spell attack.
I was thinking just illuminate the things outlined, not really shed illumination beyond them, might be cool.
 

Advertisement

Top