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5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")


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Um... 4E?
Yes, 4e formalized Source and Role, even though they'd both been implied in the game - arguably since the beginning.

(where every class is unique irrespective of source).
And, also, every class is samey. Because logic doesn't apply. ;)

UPDATE: Added 1st Level spells to OP.
First impressions:

Charm Person has always been a Wizard (and, occasionally, Druid) spell.
Why Cleric?


… aside from that, nothing leaps out.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
First impressions:

Charm Person has always been a Wizard (and, occasionally, Druid) spell.
Why Cleric?
Oddly, we both assigned it to Cleric before I compared our lists. My reasoning, at least, was to associate most of the control spells (for humanoids, not beasts or monsters) to Clerics. I also gave them Suggestion for the same reason (which @TwoSix also did, FWIW).
 

DISCUSSION POINTS: These spells need a home. :)

Armor of Agathys (Druid*/Cleric*)
Warlock spell. Gives temp hp, causes 5 cold damage when hit by melee attack.

Arms of Hadar (Wizard*/Cleric*)
Warlock spell. Does necro damage and maybe no reactions by targets.
Agathys is a layer of Carceri, so Cleric; Hadar is a star, so Warlock?

Cause Fear (Wizard*/Druid*)
Long-time wizard spell.

Expeditious Retreat (Wizard*/Druid*)
Druid (thus ranger) already gets Longstrider.

False Life (Cleric*/Druid*)
Always been a wizard spell. The very name implies it's un-natural.

Grease (Wizard*/Druid*)
Always been a wizard spell, Druid already has Entangle.

Hellish Rebuke (Wizard*/Cleric*)
Hell says it all: Cleric.

Hex (Cleric*/ Wizard*)
Key Warlock spell. Either Wizard, or make it a Warlock feature.

Inflict Wounds (Cleric*/ Druid*)
Classic EHP. Cleric.

Thunderwave (Cleric*/ Wizard*)
Originally a Wizard spell.
 

Oddly, we both assigned it to Cleric before I compared our lists. My reasoning, at least, was to associate most of the control spells (for humanoids, not beasts or monsters) to Clerics. I also gave them Suggestion for the same reason (which @TwoSix also did, FWIW).
Also makes it feel a bit redundant along side Command.

What are Enchanters supposed to do, if not Charm people?
 
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Yes, 4e formalized Source and Role, even though they'd both been implied in the game - arguably since the beginning.
They hadn't just been "implied". They were real categories with real rules effects -- I daresay more than in 4E. To take just one example, a 3E talisman of the sphere cares if you're an "arcane spellcaster"; a 4E talisman doesn't.

And, also, every class is samey. Because logic doesn't apply. ;)
Don't.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
Oddly, we both assigned it to Cleric before I compared our lists. My reasoning, at least, was to associate most of the control spells (for humanoids, not beasts or monsters) to Clerics. I also gave them Suggestion for the same reason (which @TwoSix also did, FWIW).
Yep, I moved charms in general to Cleric. I was going for a "Body, Mind, and Soul" theme there. Also channeling a bit of WoW (where the Priest class has healing and psychic spells) and classic yogi themes.
 

They hadn't just been "implied". They were real categories with real rules effects -- I daresay more than in 4E. To take just one example, a 3E talisman of the sphere cares if you're an "arcane spellcaster"; a 4E talisman doesn't.
That's a very specific example, and an item that didn't show up in 4e until the MME. OTOH, every spell had the Arcane keyword, every prayer, Divine, apervasive, foundational concept, vs a vague shorthand for 'Sorcerers & wizards ...oh, and Bards, I guess, maybe' - just the kind of classifications this thread is aspiring too - it's just that, in 4e, each class, as you pointed out, also had a unique list, not just each Source.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that this "samey" line finally came up with regard to 5e, it's going on 6 years in, the overlapping spell lists have been a thing not just all of 5e, but all of 3e, and all the game's history, before that.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Yep, I moved charms in general to Cleric. I was going for a "Body, Mind, and Soul" theme there. Also channeling a bit of WoW (where the Priest class has healing and psychic spells) and classic yogi themes.
What are your thoughts about nerfing Produce Flame to shed light and maybe ignite combustibles, but take away its attack potential? Then we could give it to Druid, move Dancing Lights to Wizard and Light to Cleric? This way, all three would have a "lighting" option. It brings back some sameyness, but seems odd all three couldn't do it. I'm on the fence myself.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
What are your thoughts about nerfing Produce Flame to shed light and maybe ignite combustibles, but take away its attack potential? Then we could give it to Druid, move Dancing Lights to Wizard and Light to Cleric? This way, all three would have a "lighting" option. It brings back some sameyness, but seems odd all three couldn't do it. I'm on the fence myself.
I think it's OK, but I think I'd prefer something like a single object Faerie Fire that just produces the same violet, blue, or green light (it's a different kind of visual, and makes the Druid a little more "eerie", which I like). My preference is always for something new rather than just a nerfed version of an existing spell.
'
Modifying Control Flames to be able start small fires on flammable objects (which I always thought was kind of silly it couldn't do) could be another way for Druids to produce light.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Don't go too crazy allocating all the control spells to the cleric. Control is a by a mile the most powerful feature of 5e spellcasting, and the blasting is generally underwhelming. I'd be ok spreading the control out a little more evenly, but that's about it. This is doubly true if there won't be any damage cantrips.

Generally, I don't think that mind control is particularly Cleric-y either, but whatevs.
 

Minigiant

Legend
On the Sorcerer

What if the fix on the Sorcerer sameyness is to give it is 4th edition powers back as spells and swap out the wizard equivalents.

Sorcerer cantrips
Acid Orb
Acid Splash
Burning Spray
Chaos Bolt

Chill Touch
Dancing Lights
Dragonfrost
Elemental Mantle

Fire Bolt
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp

Storm Walk
Stretch

True Strike
Unseen Aid
 

What are your thoughts about nerfing Produce Flame to shed light and maybe ignite combustibles, but take away its attack potential? Then we could give it to Druid, move Dancing Lights to Wizard and Light to Cleric?
Fine with it.
I think it shakes out very nicely. The Druid conjures real, if minor flame. The Cleric, divine light. The wizard, magical, heatless flames.

TwoSix said:
My preference is always for something new rather than just a nerfed version of an existing spell.
Better nerfed Produce Flame (and iconic spell, IMHO, as a 1e Druid fan), than no Produce Flame.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
I think it's OK, but I think I'd prefer something like a single object Faerie Fire that just produces the same violet, blue, or green light (it's a different kind of visual, and makes the Druid a little more "eerie", which I like). My preference is always for something new rather than just a nerfed version of an existing spell.
'
Modifying Control Flames to be able start small fires on flammable objects (which I always thought was kind of silly it couldn't do) could be another way for Druids to produce light.
Well, do you think Faerie Fire as is in 5E is too powerful? That is the only way I would consider a nerfed version or similar spell as a "lighting" cantrip. It is eerie, though... :)

I would be fine also improving Control Flames to light objects on fire if they are normally flammable.

Of these options, which do you prefer/feel is more thematic?

1. Faerie Spark (out-line one 5' or smaller object, no advantage or such element, just light (dim?).
2. Control Fire add-on (cause a small fire from flammable object)
3. Produce Flame (as written, but can't throw/no attack potential)

I think @Tony Vargas is leaning towards #3... but I could be wrong. ;)
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
On the Sorcerer

What if the fix on the Sorcerer sameyness is to give it is 4th edition powers back as spells and swap out the wizard equivalents.

Sorcerer cantrips
Acid Orb
Acid Splash
Burning Spray
Chaos Bolt

Chill Touch
Dancing Lights
Dragonfrost
Elemental Mantle

Fire Bolt
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp

Storm Walk
Stretch

True Strike
Unseen Aid
Thanks! We'll keep it in mind when the Sorcerer becomes the topic, but the first priority (as I see it) is to nail down the spell lists of the Big 3. Then we have to figure out how Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock will fit into it all.
 

2. Control Fire add-on (cause a small fire from flammable object)
3. Produce Flame (as written, but can't throw/no attack potential)

I think @Tony Vargas is leaning towards #3... but I could be wrong. ;)
I'd like either of those. Magically lighting a fire has always seemed a cool cantrip effect. Doing it ex nillo with Produce Flame is that much cooler, but lighting fires + what control fire already does is a nice deal, too.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
1. Faerie Spark (out-line one 5' or smaller object, no advantage or such element, just light (dim?).
2. Control Fire add-on (cause a small fire from flammable object)
3. Produce Flame (as written, but can't throw/no attack potential)
1, 2, 3, in that order.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
I'd like either of those. Magically lighting a fire has always seemed a cool cantrip effect. Doing it ex nillo with Produce Flame is that much cooler, but lighting fires + what control fire already does is a nice deal, too.
1, 2, 3, in that order.
Hmm. I am leaning towards #2 then. You both seem to like it well enough, even if the effect isn't as eerie or cool. :)

Actually, now that I look at it, Druidcraft already covers it:

You instantly light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.

As I was thinking a torch or small campfire size light.
 

Then we have to figure out how Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock will fit into it all.
One complication is that the Bard started out a druidic caster in 1e (consistent with the Celtic Bards of legend, who studied with Druids), and got more and more arcane with each iteration.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
One complication is that the Bard started out a druidic caster in 1e (consistent with the Celtic Bards of legend, who studied with Druids), and got more and more arcane with each iteration.
Yeah, I loved 1E bards (so powerful, though!) but I like the idea of Bards choosing their spells from anywhere. But more on that later. :)
 

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