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5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
Hmm. I am leaning towards #2 then. You both seem to like it well enough, even if the effect isn't as eerie or cool. :)

Actually, now that I look at it, Druidcraft already covers it:

You instantly light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.

As I was thinking a torch or small campfire size light.
The combination of Druidcraft and Control Flame would cover Light then, no homebrew needed. You make a stick burst into cold greenish flame with 2 quick cantrips.
 

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Thanks! We'll keep it in mind when the Sorcerer becomes the topic, but the first priority (as I see it) is to nail down the spell lists of the Big 3. Then we have to figure out how Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock will fit into it all.
I was mentioning it because I think any spell related to raw or uncontrolled magic or dragons should be held off from being attributed to a class until the Sorcerer is talked about. Same with Wtichy spells and Warlock. We would have to decide if will will keep them or port/create in new spells.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
The combination of Druidcraft and Control Flame would cover Light then, no homebrew needed. You make a stick burst into cold greenish flame with 2 quick cantrips.
@Tony Vargas replied in post #24 about the level 1 spells. When you get a chance, let me know what your thoughts are on the dozen or so that are undecided as yet.

I was mentioning it because I think any spell related to raw or uncontrolled magic or dragons should be held off from being attributed to a class until the Sorcerer is talked about. Same with Wtichy spells and Warlock. We would have to decide if will will keep them or port/create in new spells.
It is an excellent point. When doing some of the level 1 spells I was think about some of the Sorcerer and Warlock-themed spells. For the time being, I would rather put them somewhere, and then maybe remove them and turn them into class features when we get to those classes.
 


dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
So ridiculously tedious to finally qualify for, too.
I never actually got all the way there.
I saw one in my younger highschool days and the second when in graduate college. Yeah, both took a while, the second one went further. IIRC he ended up Fighter 7, Rogue 7, Bard 11 or 12 (the second about 5 years IRL of play).
 

If you are worrying about light, 3rd edition had the spell Candlelight that was the Light spell with 5ft radius and a longer duration.

Maybe recreate it?
 

The combination of Druidcraft and Control Flame would cover Light then, no homebrew needed. You make a stick burst into cold greenish flame with 2 quick cantrips.
Still like to see Produce Flame somewhere - if not as a nerfed cantrip, then powered up into an actual spell. ;)
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Still like to see Produce Flame somewhere - if not as a nerfed cantrip, then powered up into an actual spell. ;)
It's there, as a 1st level Druid spell, Burning Hands. :D

No, I know what you mean, but we are trying to work with the spells already there along with removing the damage-causing cantrips. A lot of players will be like, "WTF, Burning Hands is a WIZARD spell, bro!" but this is part of what we are trying to do, remove overlap and sameyness.

I noticed we gave Friends to Clerics, as well as Suggestion later on, so maybe Charm Person will return to Wizard, but it could also go to Druid as fey-like. That is the dilemma with this stuff and why I wanted to compare mine ant @TwoSix's list after both were done--so their would be no bias.
 

It's there, as a 1st level Druid spell, Burning Hands. :D

No, I know what you mean, but we are trying to work with the spells already there along with removing the damage-causing cantrips. A lot of players will be like, "WTF, Burning Hands is a WIZARD spell, bro!" but this is part of what we are trying to do, remove overlap and sameyness.
Burning Hands is a pretty iconic wizard spell. Produce Fire, OTOH, was a Druid Spell, as well as Produce Flame.

Thing is, neither Wizard (and thereby Sorcerer) nor Druid can have too many fire spells. ;)

I noticed we gave Friends to Clerics, as well as Suggestion later on, so maybe Charm Person will return to Wizard, but it could also go to Druid as fey-like. That is the dilemma with this stuff and why I wanted to compare mine ant @TwoSix's list after both were done--so their would be no bias.
Clerics got Command and, later, Enthrall. The former captures the natural authority of one who speaks for the Gods. The latter is magicked-up sermonizing.

Friends, especially the 5e version, does have a definite fey feel to it, as it'll totally get you into trouble, so does Suggestion.
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
Good luck with the project, and I can see your thought process in assigning things as you are.

But man are those Druid cantrips garbage from a "useful balance to all three piles" perspective.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
Armor of Agathys (Druid*/Cleric*)
Warlock spell. Gives temp hp, causes 5 cold damage when hit by melee attack.

Arms of Hadar (Wizard*/Cleric*)
Warlock spell. Does necro damage and maybe no reactions by targets.
I've tended to think of warlocks and clerics as opposite poles of the same concept, so they make sense going together in my head canon.

Cause Fear (Wizard*/Druid*)
War,W spell.
I like giving druids a bit of a witchy vibe. In a game with only three spell lists, the archetypes each one supports stretches a bit.

Expeditious Retreat (Wizard*/Druid*)
S,War,W spell.
Tough call...tradition points wizard, physical enhancement leans cleric, but this always felt druidy to me (like a lot of physical movement bonuses.) I'm not really opposed to any interpretation here, and am happy to defer.

False Life (Cleric*/Druid*)
S,W spell. Grants temp HP.
I've been going with a Druid = life energy vibe, which fit for me here.

Grease (Wizard*/Druid*)
W spell. Makes terrrain difficult, targets may fall prone.
I agonized on this one, tradition versus the overt physical summoning aspect (which also leans druid for me.) I prefer my call, but it's a soft preference.

Hellish Rebuke (Wizard*/Cleric*)
Warlock spell.
Another tough one, generally went with the "Hell = outer planes = cleric" here. Plus the melee utility worked better for clerics.

Hex (Cleric*/ Wizard*)
Warlock spell.
This one came down to "Do I want to see paladins with Hex?" and the answer was no.

Inflict Wounds (Cleric*/ Druid*)
Cleric spell. Does necro damage.
See Druid = life energy above.

Thunderwave (Cleric*/ Wizard*)
B,D,S,W spell. Does thunder damage, maybe pushes targets away.
AoE made it a Wizard spell for me. I'd rather see Cleric AoE be very weak to nonexistent, Druids have some, and Wizards be the kings.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
To me:

Armor of Agathys: Cleric (its a layer of Hells, so cleric)
Arms of Hadar: Wizard (astrologist stuff)
Cause Fear: Cleric
Expeditious Retreat: Wizard
False Life: Cleric (necromantic stuff always feel cleric-y to me)
Grease: Wizard
Hellish Rebuke: Cleric (see point 1)
Hex: Druid (for that ol' witch-y vibe)
Inflict Wounds: Druid
Thunderwave: Druid

Some notes:
Friends is really a thing that screams wizard. There's no divine command or a subtle ''forced conversion'' feel to it. Charm Person is also too brutal and direct for the theme of the cleric.

(We really need a ''charm plants and beast'' between lvl 1 (charm person) and lvl 4 (charm monster) for the druids.)

Also, in the first post, Burning Hands appears to be a Wizard's spell, not the a druid one.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Question: Will the ''named'' spells automatically be put in the wizard list or will they use their neutral names and be categorized in whichever spell list they fit the most?
 

That's a very specific example, and an item that didn't show up in 4e until the MME.
It's in the DMG.

OTOH, every spell had the Arcane keyword, every prayer, Divine, apervasive, foundational concept, vs a vague shorthand for 'Sorcerers & wizards ...oh, and Bards, I guess, maybe' - just the kind of classifications this thread is aspiring too - it's just that, in 4e, each class, as you pointed out, also had a unique list, not just each Source.
There was nothing vague about it. Every spellcasting class in 3E, from the ones in the PHB to the myriad prestige classes in every splatbook, clearly indicated if it was an arcane or divine caster. 4E made some innovations, sure. It spun Primal off from Divine, and it made Martial an affirmative identity rather simply the absence of magic. But to claim power source as a 4E development is just inescapably untrue.

On a more subjective note, I wouldn't call it "foundational", either. Sure, they printed power source keywords a lot, but they rarely if ever did anything with them: imagine a version of 4E where they deleted all those keywords (the way they quietly did in 5E), and the gameplay changes not at all. Superficially, power sources may resemble other games' foundational mechanics, like, say, the colors of Magic: the Gathering. But they're cosmetic; the rules of 4E aren't built on them.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that this "samey" line finally came up with regard to 5e, it's going on 6 years in, the overlapping spell lists have been a thing not just all of 5e, but all of 3e, and all the game's history, before that.
Yeah, I don't see the "samey" at all myself. But if nothing else this thread is an interesting exercise.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
First, off, thanks to everyone else for contributing. Please don't feel slighted if I am directing my response to TwoSix for general back-and-forth, I am definitely listening to everyone else as well! :)

@TwoSix:

So, your thinking on the Cleric vs. Warlock dichotomy is they both receive their powers from an entity of some from, Cleric from gods, Warlocks from patrons. I can go with that for most of the Warlock spells, but IMO for balance some will probably trickle into Druid and Wizard and might fit them better for flavor.

Your thinking on Druid is the "life energy" idea, which is sound, and necro == rot basically, right? But what about healing? The idea of an "evil cleric" who causes injury (e.g. Inflict Wounds) would become the "evil druid". I am concerned with some of the ideas you've expressed Druids are becoming a bit "twisted" in a sense, wanting the eerie, rotting, witchy-vibe. I guess instead of "spread the love, man" I think we need to consider "spread the evil, man." Do you see my point or am I missing something in your interpretation? I am trying to move in that general direction, but I think we need to make certain we don't push it too hard.

I suppose we need to think about the what and the how and the why. For example, I am really torn about Expeditious Retreat. It feels more druidy and rangery to me than wizardy. In the same light, I think of Misty Step as sort of the precursor to Dimension Door, and the Teleport spells--but the very name, "Misty Step", and how it functions screams "DRUID!" IMO.

Anyway, I have updated 1st levels spells taking your points (and others) into consideration. When you have time review them and cry "Foul!" if anything counters your views/ideas.

Below is a quick summary:
Armor of Agathys - Cleric
Arms of Hadar - Cleric
Cause Fear - Cleric
Expeditious Retreat - Wizard
False Life - Druid
Grease - Wizard
Hellish Rebuke - Cleric
Hex - Cleric
Inflict Wounds - Druid
Thunderwave - Wizard

Hopefully tomorrow we can wrap up 1st level spells and I'll post the initial list and discussion points for 2nd level spells.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Question: Will the ''named'' spells automatically be put in the wizard list or will they use their neutral names and be categorized in whichever spell list they fit the most?
No, they won't automatically go to Wizard as far as I am concerned. I imagine most of them will, but in this exercise I am willing to rethink the roles of the classes/lists a bit as well. :)
 

Iry

Adventurer
Curiously, I have no problem with Clerics getting blasting spells but dislike the idea of them getting more control spells. While both Arcane and Divine have always had some, control is heavily associated with Arcane in my mind.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Dialing it back from granting advantage to canceling disadvantage might do it. Or even just canceling obscurement effects.

Whatever, so long as they can all be glowy, without being samey. ;)
My rewrite of cleric to have no cantrips but instead a single feature revolving around light and sanctification, that ties in thematically to the other Things they do, includes lighting up an enemy. No explicit rider needed, they just are a light source. In my version it deals radiant damage, bc I like clerics burning things with holy fire, but in a “cantrips can’t do damage Bc reasons” model, is just drop the damage.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Spell lists alone aren’t going to cut it. Treating the symptom, here.
I’d say the opposite, this goes much too far, IMO, creating new problems that don’t need to exist.

Still, there are interesting things involved, so I plan on treating it as a + thread.
 

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