D&D 5E (2014) Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

[Fenris-77]

Not a lot of love for the Wizard there. Here Mr. Wizard, you can have the pu-pu platter while Mr. Cleric and Mr. Druid are seated in the VIP section with our compliments.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Since Find Steed and its superior version create fey/celestial/fiendish version of the summoned creatures, I'd go with Cleric when we get to them. Wizard will still have their phantom horses and druid just have to charm/convince creatures to serve as mount for a time.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Not a lot of love for the Wizard there. Here Mr. Wizard, you can have the pu-pu platter while Mr. Cleric and Mr. Druid are seated in the VIP section with our compliments.

2nd level spells always felt weak to me for the arcane casters, beyond some cool ones such as mirror image, shatter, rope trick and phantasmal force.

 

[Fenris-77]

I get it, fire, elemental, Druids. But you just gave away both the Wizard's best offensive 2nd level spell and the best offensive 2nd level BA spell - to the Druid. I don't think I'd carry the fire-in-the-name = druid thing quite that far. Plus 4 of the 5 next best spells also went either Cleric or Druid.

I like the themed lists, but there needs to be some balance somewhere.

 

[TwoSix]

Aganazzar's Scorcher (Druid*/Wizard) (S,W)
For the fire element, I am leaning towards Druid. Wizard already has Burning Hands and Fireball. What decent Fire spells does the Druid have really?

My interest here was keeping instantaneous AoE damage the province of the Wizard. Unlike our #EMBIGGENTHEBOOM companions, I tend to feel like AoE damage is already big enough (and really, it's how you use it that counts!), enough that I like having one class feature that as a primary function.

Alter Self (Druid*/Wizard) (S,W)
For the shape-shifting idea, as well as developing natural weapons, I thought Druid would be better for this spell. If it was an Illusion, such as Disguise Self, I would totally think more Wizard (which is why Disguise Self stayed with Wizard).

I'm on board for Druid, especially since it can play up the fey/trickery theme.

Blindness/Deafness (Cleric/ Druid*) (B,C,S,W)
I went with Cleric, TwoSix with Druid, which I get because this is a necro spell. I'd be fine with committing this to Druid given the somewhat curse-like nature of the spell--very witchy.

Prefer Druid for reasons you gave, happy to defer to tradition with Cleric if desired.

Continual Flame (Druid*/Wizard) (C,W)
I was thinking Druid but just remembered this isn't actual flame (no heat, no oxygen use). I guess we could think of it as an upgrade from Dancing Lights and commit it to Wizard?

Yep...this is always one of the go-to spells for the "magic as technology" feel, which is the Wizard bread and butter to me.

Crown of Madness (Wizard/Cleric*) (B,S,War,W)
I think I understand why TwoSix went Cleric, given the Cleric/Warlock comparison, and it also affects humanoids, a core concept for Cleric in this exercise. However, given the brutal, controlling nature of this spell I thought Wizard would be a better fit.

Your logic makes sense here. "Control" is something I feel is a strong evil cleric theme, "Madness" much less so.

Flaming Sphere (Wizard/Druid) (D,W)
Coin toss? This could go either way for just about any reason. I think wherever we place Aganazzar's Scorcher, Flaming Sphere should go to the other list.

Non-instantaneous elemental spells I defaulted to Druid, as the mirror of the AoE argument I made earlier. Several of these spells we could swap with a different thematic or mechanical reason being the preference.

Gentle Repose (Cleric/ Druid*) (C,W)
Although necrotic, this spell is protection-oriented IMO and should fall under the Cleric's list.

Agreed. Rot is natural, preventing it much less so. Maintaining the stability of a physical form is Cleric-themed.

Locate Object (Cleric/Wizard) (B,C,D,P,R,W)
Sigh... the "Locate" spells... I just don't know and I can see good arguments for any list really. I am leaning towards Cleric to bolster their spell list (which seems to be lagging in number with each added spell level), but a useful spell for Druids/Rangers; equally useful to Wizards.

Yea, they ended up about 20% behind Wizards and Druids in my final tally. I'd prefer to see it Wizards about 25% ahead of Clerics and Druids, who are roughly equivalent. Happy to move this to Cleric.

Ray of Enfeeblement (Cleric*/Druid*) (War,W)
Another toss up IMO. Given the performance-altering aspect, and the Cleric/Warlock idea, I think the idea of weakening an opponents STR-based attacks (typically melee) would be better for Clerics/Paladins who are more likely to front-line IME than Druids/Rangers. However, with the necro component, I could just as easily see this going to Druid. It is also a classic Wizard spell from earlier editions. I almost feel like this one will fall into a list to improve that list more than anything else.

Agree with your logic. Physical debuff is like a curse, which lends itself it to the druid/witch angle, but this is definitely a floater for me.

Scorching Ray (Druid*/Wizard) (S,W)
Ah, another fire-based attack spell. There are a lot of those in 2nd level spells! No great thought about this one, Fire = Druid, but Wizard spell currently and at this point both classes have sufficient fire-attack spells. I think this will come down to a balance between the different fire spells and just who is better served and represented by which one.

Yea, definitely can shift for balance concerns. Tiebreaker for me was this was originally a Wizard spell, but that's really it.

Shatter (Cleric*/Wizard) (B,S,War,W)
This is pretty much a straight AoE arcane spell, so I'll probably end up differing it, but man, I love the Cleric-Thunder concept a lot... sigh...

I think tying certain elements to the classes is something with a lot of potential. The real tough ones are fire, and lightning, because there's good reason to tie those to EVERY class. Maybe one or two elements that are exclusive to each class, and the rest are shared?

I do agree that Tempest Cleric has, by itself, made me think of Shatter as a Cleric spell.

Silence (Cleric/Wizard*) (B,C,R)
For me this is a classic Cleric spell, almost to the level of Wizard-Fireball. Wizards have Counterspell and Dispel Magic, so to my thinking this is the one thing Clerics can do to stick it to the Wizards a bit when it comes to spell thwarting. It is very useful in other respects as well, of course.

I'm OK with this. It's classic Cleric, like you said, and it's not really as beastly as it was in previous editions. Spells which affect zones feel more Cleric-like to me as well, so I'm happy to see this stay Cleric.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That seems arbitrary and forced. Why go through that work just to...meet an arbitrary goal of...not letting some classes have their own spells...in order to keep classes less samey?

Spells are the primary identity of the Big 3, so, yeah, I can see it. If a 'lesser' caster gets some unique magic, defining it as not a spell protects the identity of the corresponding primary caster as master over that realm of magic.

am I the only one who sees the weird, there?

There' so much weird (trees) in D&D, you cant see the weird (forest). Though you can always see Weird - it's a 9th level Wizard spell.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Spells are the primary identity of the Big 3, so, yeah, I can see it. If a 'lesser' caster gets some unique magic, defining it as not a spell protects the identity of the corresponding primary caster as master over that realm of magic.

There' so much weird (trees) in D&D, you cant see the weird (forest). Though you can always see Weird - it's a 9th level Wizard spell.

Alright, I’ll stop trying to have a serious discussion about it. Fair enough.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I get it, fire, elemental, Druids. But you just gave away both the Wizard's best offensive 2nd level spell and the best offensive 2nd level BA spell - to the Druid. I don't think I'd carry the fire-in-the-name = druid thing quite that far. Plus 4 of the 5 next best spells also went either Cleric or Druid.

I like the themed lists, but there needs to be some balance somewhere.

Your wizard could gain Scorching Ray in exchange for Spider Climb for my druid! Deal?

 

[TwoSix]

That seems arbitrary and forced. Why go through that work just to...meet an arbitrary goal of...not letting some classes have their own spells...in order to keep classes less samey?

am I the only one who sees the weird, there?

I would argue this point: the proposal isn't so much about making the "classes" distinct, it's about making "magic", and the different types of magic, distinct as a narrative entity.

 

[Fenris-77]

See, this is where I'd pull the bell and get off the bus as a player. 9 of the 10 or so best 2nd level Wizard spells just just got offloaded for 'reasons'. Theme is cool, but that's the opposite of balance. Check please.