5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Really enjoying this thread!

If would be interesting to consider already the "big fourth" of magic sources... Psionics!
Dang that would have been awesome. But I would really reduce the other Spheres and probably cause @Fenris-77 to have an heart attack while I giggle while removing telekinesis, scrying and such from the Arcane Sphere :p
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
Really enjoying this thread!

If would be interesting to consider already the "big fourth" of magic sources... Psionics!
That would be interesting and maybe we can consider it for a later discussion. I was never happy with the UA handling of Psionics and began writing my own homebrew for it.
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
FWIW when the spells lists are done (or at least a draft of each spell level), I will post a compilation of spells gained/lost for each class compared to the current lists.
 
Dang that would have been awesome. But I would really reduce the other Spheres and probably cause @Fenris-77 to have an heart attack while I giggle while removing telekinesis, scrying and such from the Arcane Sphere :p
I like Psionics, I just don't want them to feel like a reskinned spellcaster. I wouldn't use the spells or slot mechanics for them given the choice. I certainly wouldn't poach spells for a fourth class out of the existing lists. That would probably bring on an apoplexy. OR at least gin up a good dose of the angina. I'd prefer something more like stacked invocation style abilities worked into feat trees, probably powered by a point system with the ability to use either HP or CON to power abilities in a pinch.
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
I like Psionics, I just don't want them to feel like a reskinned spellcaster. I wouldn't use the spells or slot mechanics for them given the choice. I certainly wouldn't poach spells for a fourth class out of the existing lists. That would probably bring on an apoplexy. OR at least gin up a good dose of the angina. I'd prefer something more like stacked invocation style abilities worked into feat trees, probably powered by a point system with the ability to use either HP or CON to power abilities in a pinch.
I agree. The homebrew I stated on doesn't use slots or take spells away from the casters, but I don't want to derail the current thread topic.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Note: I'm evaluating the spells under the concept I was discussing back on post 188. Namely, wizards get spells from every list, limited by opposition schools, sorcerers and/or warlocks are the primary casters for arcane. I've found thinking in those terms really has helped my refine my concepts on some of the more difficult spells.

Hold Monster (B,S,War,W) - "Monster is Arcane, Person is Divine, Plants and Animals are Primal" idea makes a ton of sense, I'd go with it. Arcane.

Scrying (B,C,D,War,W) - Knowledge gathering, plus the "space bending" aspect of the spell point me to Arcane. I think Primal casters would just ask a fey to go spy for them, and a Divine caster would Commune to gain information.

Danse Macabre - I'm fully on board with evil priests raising the dead. Divine.

Immolation/Flame Strike - I'd swap them, personally. Flame Strike is heaven-sent, and does radiant damage. Immolation sets someone's insides on fire, which feels like a powerful witch curse. Flame Strike - Divine, Immo - Primal.
 
Actually, Druids can use metal weapons without any problem, this has been the case since 1E:

1581683486641.png


As you can see, daggers and scimitars were used, scimitars actually very common IME anyway.
Only time I played 1e, the party druid had to use wooden, stone, gem, bone, or single metal nonalloy weapons. The DM was weird so my memory of rules might be off.

No one ever said Ranger was weaker, if fact we are making them much stronger by drastically increasing their spell selection. You saw one spell you objected to, and ran with it. So...

Rangers, as we are dedicating as the half-caster of "natural/primal" spells, have most of their spells belong to the Druid. While Rangers did get some M-U spells in 1E, our goal is the anyone who plays a Ranger now has access to the same spells they did before in 5E. By putting all of their spells under Druid, they not only have access to most of their current spells, but others as well. The only spells they have lost are:

Alarm
Silence
Nondetection

Any or all of which, personally, I wouldn't mind moving to Druid. But, also considering all the new spells they are gaining, I think it is a reasonable compromise. I am sorry if disagree, but from the beginning hopefully we all understood compromises would be made.

Similarly, the Paladin loses:

Magic Weapon
Elemental Weapon

But it also gains a ton of new spells.
I would have to disagree with it being find for Rangers to a point.

Since OD&D, rangers had access to Divination and Communication items and spells. This originally was to mimic Aragorn's use of items that did this.

But as editions evolves, divination and communication have been core to the ranger experience. Especially as does gained ways to defeat mundane tracking.

Ranger is the tracking class. You can't track flyers and teleporters and people with Pass without Trace with all the lower Divination spells.

So limiting ranger to druid spells would require giving rangers a way to magical track people who leave no footsteps nor trails. Now I don't know if we are going to give rangers omniscience.

This isn't a problem for paladins as all they need for their job is Find Steed and Smites.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Unfortunately, this is where I think we need to start shifting the bailiwicks of the Big 3. As others have said, I like the idea of Clerics summoning demons and being able to banish them. This allows for good and evil to both be represented in the same class.

While druids conjuring elements makes some sense obviously, they already conjure other things. Changing our mindset to something more along the lines druids can controls and manipulate elements, but once that force takes on sentience they can't, and this is where the wizard steps in?

It isn't easy, trying to re-imagine some long-standing concepts with regard to these spells. :(
I'm actually leaning back towards making demons be arcane, celestials be divine, and everything else be primal.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
I like Psionics, I just don't want them to feel like a reskinned spellcaster. I wouldn't use the spells or slot mechanics for them given the choice. I certainly wouldn't poach spells for a fourth class out of the existing lists. That would probably bring on an apoplexy. OR at least gin up a good dose of the angina. I'd prefer something more like stacked invocation style abilities worked into feat trees, probably powered by a point system with the ability to use either HP or CON to power abilities in a pinch.
I've probably pimped this before on psionic threads, but since it hits pretty close to what you're asking for:
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
Note: I'm evaluating the spells under the concept I was discussing back on post 188. Namely, wizards get spells from every list, limited by opposition schools, sorcerers and/or warlocks are the primary casters for arcane. I've found thinking in those terms really has helped my refine my concepts on some of the more difficult spells.

Hold Monster (B,S,War,W) - "Monster is Arcane, Person is Divine, Plants and Animals are Primal" idea makes a ton of sense, I'd go with it. Arcane.

Scrying (B,C,D,War,W) - Knowledge gathering, plus the "space bending" aspect of the spell point me to Arcane. I think Primal casters would just ask a fey to go spy for them, and a Divine caster would Commune to gain information.

Danse Macabre - I'm fully on board with evil priests raising the dead. Divine.

Immolation/Flame Strike - I'd swap them, personally. Flame Strike is heaven-sent, and does radiant damage. Immolation sets someone's insides on fire, which feels like a powerful witch curse. Flame Strike - Divine, Immo - Primal.
You know, I began a second spreadsheet using this idea and I will share it once the current iteration is complete. Funny thing is, it might be a better way of going about it.

I'm actually leaning back towards making demons be arcane, celestials be divine, and everything else be primal.
Again, I get the thought process but it smacks too much in the idea CLERIC = GOOD and WIZARD = EVIL. It pigeonholes things IMO. Can you convince me otherwise?
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
Only time I played 1e, the party druid had to use wooden, stone, gem, bone, or single metal nonalloy weapons. The DM was weird so my memory of rules might be off.
That is certainly possible LOL. I could understand a DM uber-enforcing the "no metal" thing but it wasn't typical IME.

I would have to disagree with it being find for Rangers to a point.

Since OD&D, rangers had access to Divination and Communication items and spells. This originally was to mimic Aragorn's use of items that did this.

But as editions evolves, divination and communication have been core to the ranger experience. Especially as does gained ways to defeat mundane tracking.

Ranger is the tracking class. You can't track flyers and teleporters and people with Pass without Trace with all the lower Divination spells.

So limiting ranger to druid spells would require giving rangers a way to magical track people who leave no footsteps nor trails. Now I don't know if we are going to give rangers omniscience.

This isn't a problem for paladins as all they need for their job is Find Steed and Smites.
Again, I point out, other than those three spells (Alarm, Silence, Nondetection), Rangers in this exercise have precisely the same spells (a lot more, actually) than they currently have in 5E. Are you upset with the default Ranger spell list in 5E as well? If you are happy with 5E Ranger spells RAW, then I don't understand why you are finding so much wrong with this.
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
Hold Monster (B,S,War,W) - "Monster is Arcane, Person is Divine, Plants and Animals are Primal" idea makes a ton of sense, I'd go with it. Arcane.

Scrying (B,C,D,War,W) - Knowledge gathering, plus the "space bending" aspect of the spell point me to Arcane. I think Primal casters would just ask a fey to go spy for them, and a Divine caster would Commune to gain information.

Danse Macabre - I'm fully on board with evil priests raising the dead. Divine.

Immolation/Flame Strike - I'd swap them, personally. Flame Strike is heaven-sent, and does radiant damage. Immolation sets someone's insides on fire, which feels like a powerful witch curse. Flame Strike - Divine, Immo - Primal.
I agree. I've update the 5th level list and I (for one) am pretty happy with it. :)
 
That is certainly possible LOL. I could understand a DM uber-enforcing the "no metal" thing but it wasn't typical IME.



Again, I point out, other than those three spells (Alarm, Silence, Nondetection), Rangers in this exercise have precisely the same spells (a lot more, actually) than they currently have in 5E. Are you upset with the default Ranger spell list in 5E as well? If you are happy with 5E Ranger spells RAW, then I don't understand why you are finding so much wrong with this.
I HATE THE DEFAULT RANGER LIST SO MUCH.

so much
so much
First 5e campaign

Wizard: Track the dragon, Mini.
Me: I can't. You let him fly away, Jerry.
Fighter/Pally: Don't look at me. I can only ride horses and smite things.
Me: I could've tracked his necklace but somebody....
Rogue/Cleric: The church demand tithes!
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
You know, I began a second spreadsheet using this idea and I will share it once the current iteration is complete. Funny thing is, it might be a better way of going about it.
That's fair. I don't think it changes too much, but I find it easier to leverage things out of Arcane if I know wizards can still get them no matter what list they might be on.


Again, I get the thought process but it smacks too much in the idea CLERIC = GOOD and WIZARD = EVIL. It pigeonholes things IMO. Can you convince me otherwise?
I'd argue that even going back to early editions, demons specifically have always stood apart from any divine hierarchies. Demon lords aren't gods, but they're pretty close to gods and don't have any traditional gods that stand above them. (Lloth might be the only exception, but she's always been weird from a lore standpoint, and has her own retinue of demonic servitors apart from the normal demons.) Even some of the CE gods in print work with demons, but they aren't part of the god's retinues the way angels are for most of the good gods.

More recent lore makes that division even more explicit, the Dawn War pantheon has demons as explicitly not part of the divine hierarchy, and Eberron has demons as part of either Khyber or some of the darker planes, but not the servants of gods.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
On the ''Summon/Conjure X''
I think I'd let demon as a cleric thing (up until we have a Conjure Devil spell).
To the Wizard, I'd give Minor Elemental, because it summon mostly intelligent-ish elemental creature, and give Conjure Elemental to the Druid because its mostly use to conjure THE Elementals and elemental archons, which are more or less mindless primal energy shaped in crude form). Druid still have Conjure best, fey and Woodland being.

I will steal Planar Ally and Gate and give it to the Wizard, because I feel they are the next in the ''contact other plane'' spell tree.
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
I HATE THE DEFAULT RANGER LIST SO MUCH.

so much
so much
First 5e campaign

Wizard: Track the dragon, Mini.
Me: I can't. You let him fly away, Jerry.
Fighter/Pally: Don't look at me. I can only ride horses and smite things.
Me: I could've tracked his necklace but somebody....
Rogue/Cleric: The church demand tithes!
I get your point. Unfortunately, we are working with the current 5E spell lists and the goal was to make certain Rangers and Paladins (and whatever half-caster Arcane we decide--I favor Warlock) has access to as many of their current spells as possible. What else they should have is IMO preference.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Orpahn spells level 6
Chain Lightning: I think its ''wild'' enough as a spell to fit on the Primal's.
Circle of Death: Cleric
Create Homunculus: Wizard all-in
Create Undead: Cleric, mummy-making and all that
Eyebite: It was a Fey-warlock thing in 4e, so Arcane or Primal.
Guards and Wards: Cleric
Harm: Destroy life = Druid ?(Improved ''Blight'')
Magic Jar: Parlor Trick = Wizard
Mental Prison: Cleric
Move Earth: Geomancy = Druid
Otto's Irresistible Dance: hard mind control = Wizard
Scatter: Fey-trick = Druid
True Seeing: Cleric
Word of Recall: I know its a Cleric only spell, but it feels so much more Wizard-y to me.
 

dnd4vr

Keeper of the Seven Keys
I'd argue that even going back to early editions, demons specifically have always stood apart from any divine hierarchies. Demon lords aren't gods, but they're pretty close to gods and don't have any traditional gods that stand above them. (Lloth might be the only exception, but she's always been weird from a lore standpoint, and has her own retinue of demonic servitors apart from the normal demons.) Even some of the CE gods in print work with demons, but they aren't part of the god's retinues the way angels are for most of the good gods.

More recent lore makes that division even more explicit, the Dawn War pantheon has demons as explicitly not part of the divine hierarchy, and Eberron has demons as part of either Khyber or some of the darker planes, but not the servants of gods.
Hmm. Well, TBH, I am not as familiar with the distinction in 5E and working more from prior editions (mainly 1E and 2E). If we can strike a balance in spell number and power, I am certainly willing to defer demons to Wizard if others agree.

If anyone feels inclined to do the legwork, it would be interesting to tackle a compiled list of the summoning/ conjuring spells to see which aspect falls best where. I would, but I am leaving in a while and won't have much time before then.
 

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