5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Question:

Does the spell-tree of: Inflict Wound -> Blight -> Contagion -> Harm feels more druidic or cleric-y to you?

The whole destroy life/cycle of life thing speaks Primal to me, but the reverse-Jesus thing also says ''dark cleric'' to me. Conundrum.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Question:

Does the spell-tree of: Inflict Wound -> Blight -> Contagion -> Harm feels more druidic or cleric-y to you?

The whole destroy life/cycle of life thing speaks Primal to me, but the reverse-Jesus thing also says ''dark cleric'' to me. Conundrum.
Yep. Again: difficult choices. Harm is a legacy Cleric spell IMO (akin to Heal). Keeping some of those spells in Cleric enforces the dark cleric, as you say, while Druid has plenty of dark/destructive spells to make them thoroughly "bad" for the player who wants them.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Oh man, 6th is tough.

Chain Lightning - Blasting AoE - Arcane
Circle of Death - Thematic question. The Primal - Feywild connection makes sense and seems popular, but what about a Primal - Shadowfell connection? Lean Primal, but if people don't think that linkage makes sense, Divine.
Create Homunculus - Arcane.
Create Undead - Divine.
Eyebite - Arcane.
Guards and Wards - Arcane.
Harm - Ugh. relates to my CoD question above. I think I'd still favor Divine, as this is a classic reversible spell.
Magic Jar - This spell is about souls, so Divine.
Mental Prison - Arcane.
Move Earth - Geomancy is Primal.
Otto's Irresistible Dance - Named spell, so I lean Arcane.
Scatter - Teleporting is Arcane for me. If we agree teleporting is fey in nature and should be Primal, that's OK too.
True Seeing - Revealing things as they truly are is Divine. Arcane and Primal do tricks, Divine sees through the trickery.
Word of Recall - Word magic always reads as Arcane to me.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Oh man, 6th is tough.

Chain Lightning - Blasting AoE - Arcane
Circle of Death - Thematic question. The Primal - Feywild connection makes sense and seems popular, but what about a Primal - Shadowfell connection? Lean Primal, but if people don't think that linkage makes sense, Divine.
Create Homunculus - Arcane.
Create Undead - Divine.
Eyebite - Arcane.
Guards and Wards - Arcane.
Harm - Ugh. relates to my CoD question above. I think I'd still favor Divine, as this is a classic reversible spell.
Magic Jar - This spell is about souls, so Divine.
Mental Prison - Arcane.
Move Earth - Geomancy is Primal.
Otto's Irresistible Dance - Named spell, so I lean Arcane.
Scatter - Teleporting is Arcane for me. If we agree teleporting is fey in nature and should be Primal, that's OK too.
True Seeing - Revealing things as they truly are is Divine. Arcane and Primal do tricks, Divine sees through the trickery.
Word of Recall - Word magic always reads as Arcane to me.
Yep, I think its a good way of seing it.

I actually like the Primal = Shadowfell-Prime-Fey-Elemental Chaos being Primal, while the Planes at large being Arcane and the Astral Dominions being Divine.
 
I get your point. Unfortunately, we are working with the current 5E spell lists and the goal was to make certain Rangers and Paladins (and whatever half-caster Arcane we decide--I favor Warlock) has access to as many of their current spells as possible. What else they should have is IMO preference.
Oh I get that.

I am more saying that spells involving arrows don't find my image of a d&d cleric, druid, nor wizard. None of them are now users outside of elven ones.

The same going for alloy metals and druids.

So having these on the list just for categorization is just inflating list with spells that will just need to be removed. And they will have to be tagged for further discussion.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Question:

Does the spell-tree of: Inflict Wound -> Blight -> Contagion -> Harm feels more druidic or cleric-y to you?

The whole destroy life/cycle of life thing speaks Primal to me, but the reverse-Jesus thing also says ''dark cleric'' to me. Conundrum.
I think I'd associate Primal with the idea of death as a natural process. It recycles, rots, and breaks down. That's why reincarnate is a Primal spell. Dark Primal energy is also associated with infection; a curse is like a parasitic magical organism that feeds off its host. So Blight and Contagion are Primal in feel.

Harm, though, is a spell of annihilation, it's a smiting through the raw power of Death itself. So for that, I'd lean Divine.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Oh I get that.

I am more saying that spells involving arrows don't find my image of a d&d cleric, druid, nor wizard. None of them are now users outside of elven ones.

The same going for alloy metals and druids.

So having these on the list just for categorization is just inflating list with spells that will just need to be removed. And they will have to be tagged for further discussion.
I imagine some spells might become spell-like features for the half-casters. Some points have already made about spells such as Eldritch Blast, Hex, etc. for Warlocks.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Oh I get that.

I am more saying that spells involving arrows don't find my image of a d&d cleric, druid, nor wizard. None of them are now users outside of elven ones.

The same going for alloy metals and druids.

So having these on the list just for categorization is just inflating list with spells that will just need to be removed. And they will have to be tagged for further discussion.
I think the idea we're trying to build and flesh out here (at least, for me) is that the spell lists represent cosmological principles and magical techniques that supersede any one class. The Primal spells are about "Nature" as a whole, the connections between the Material Realm, the Fey Realm and its denizens, the Shadow Realm and the spirits that haunt it, and the raw power of the Elemental Realms that underlie the three worlds.

A druid is just a particular type of caster who masters these energies. A ranger knows how to use the techniques of the druid, just not with the depth of the connection a druid has. So there are certain techniques of using Primal magic that are most often used by rangers, but there's nothing stopping a druid from using that technique if they want, they just usually won't synergize with the abilities druids possess.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
I think the idea we're trying to build and flesh out here (at least, for me) is that the spell lists represent cosmological principles and magical techniques that supersede any one class. The Primal spells are about "Nature" as a whole, the connections between the Material Realm, the Fey Realm and its denizens, the Shadow Realm and the spirits that haunt it, and the raw power of the Elemental Realms that underlie the three worlds.

A druid is just a particular type of caster who masters these energies. A ranger knows how to use the techniques of the druid, just not with the depth of the connection a druid has. So there are certain techniques of using Primal magic that are most often used by rangers, but there's nothing stopping a druid from using that technique if they want, they just usually won't synergize with the abilities druids possess.
Nailed it. ;)
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
I imagine some spells might become spell-like features for the half-casters. Some points have already made about spells such as Eldritch Blast, Hex, etc. for Warlocks.
This too. Hunter's Mark and Swift Quiver, for example, make sense as ranger techniques that are acquired by class features, not spellcasting. I'd say options like Lightning Arrow, Entangling Strike, and Conjure Barrage (literally, "Conjure" Barrage!) should stay as spells.

I could see an argument for Conjure Barrage being an arcane spell that Rangers gain via class feature, though.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
I could see an argument for Conjure Barrage being an arcane spell that Rangers gain via class feature, though.
I was under the impression originally that the idea was to keep spell access completely segregated so there would be no sameyenss/overlap at all. Am I mistaken?

Thus, Rangers would not have access (in any fashion) to Divine or Arcane spells.

I am fine with it if that wasn't the intent. I think the missing spells, such as Alarm and Nondetection particularly, would work well as gain via a class feature/subclass spelllist bonus, etc.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
I was under the impression originally that the idea was to keep spell access completely segregated so there would be no sameyenss/overlap at all. Am I mistaken?

Thus, Rangers would not have access (in any fashion) to Divine or Arcane spells.

I am fine with it if that wasn't the intent. I think the missing spells, such as Alarm and Nondetection particularly, would work well as gain via a class feature/subclass spelllist bonus, etc.
It definitely was my original intent, but I’m backsliding a bit. :)
If I go back to my wizard concept, where “spell school” is a set of techniques that’s entirely orthogonal to the origin of the spell, then it makes sense that other classes might be able to learn a technique that’s outside their normal paradigm.

I’d still want to enforce it for the primary casters though, a cleric shouldn’t be casting fireball. The domain powers of clerics should only be from the divine list, for example.
 
I think the idea we're trying to build and flesh out here (at least, for me) is that the spell lists represent cosmological principles and magical techniques that supersede any one class. The Primal spells are about "Nature" as a whole, the connections between the Material Realm, the Fey Realm and its denizens, the Shadow Realm and the spirits that haunt it, and the raw power of the Elemental Realms that underlie the three worlds.

A druid is just a particular type of caster who masters these energies. A ranger knows how to use the techniques of the druid, just not with the depth of the connection a druid has. So there are certain techniques of using Primal magic that are most often used by rangers, but there's nothing stopping a druid from using that technique if they want, they just usually won't synergize with the abilities druids possess.
To me

The D&D iconic Druid
The Primal spellcaster
And Religious nature druid

Has completely different spell lists.

That's why I think Primal and Nature should be different list. I'd have 7-10 different power sources. But we're past that.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
To me

The D&D iconic Druid
The Primal spellcaster
And Religious nature druid

Has completely different spell lists.

That's why I think Primal and Nature should be different list. I'd have 7-10 different power sources. But we're past that.
Yea, that's definitely a very different exercise. I'd be happy to chime in if you wanted to flesh out the concept in a different thread, though. I'd be interested to see your conceptions of power sources.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
That's why I think Primal and Nature should be different list. I'd have 7-10 different power sources. But we're past that.
I think an exercise to create about 20 spell spheres can be an exciting one!

Fire - Burning Hands, Scorcher, Ray of fire, Fireball, Wall of fire, Firestorm, Immolation, Flaming Strike.
Earth - Stone Skin, Bones of the Earth, Stone Shape, Meld into Stone, Shape Earth, Earthquake, Stone Wall, Sand Wall.
Storm- Storm sphere, Sleet Storm, Conjure Lighning, Control Weather, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Ice Storm.
Void and Star: Levitate, reverse gravity, Etheralness, Minute Meteor,
Wind - Wardind Wind, Feather Fall, Gust of Wind, Wall of Wind, Fly,
Water - Tidal Wave, Tsumani, Control Water, Wall of Water, Cone of Cold
Plant - Entangle, spike growth, wall of thorns, Giant Vine,
Beast - Shapechange, Alter self, beast sense, Giant insect, Insect plague
Charm -Charm X, Dominate X, Irresistible Dance, Enthrall, Compulsion, Suggestion
Enchant Item - Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Instant Summon, Fabricate
Conjure Chaos - Summon X demons, Sumon X elemental
Conjure Law - Conjure Celestial, Planar Ally, Gate, Hold X
Conjure Spirit - Conjure Fey, Conjure Woodland being, Conjure animal
Create & Destroy Life - Heal/Harm, Cure/Inflict Wounds, Blight, Contagion, X Restoration
Exorcise Good & Evil -Banish, Banish good and evil, protection from good/evil, Hallow, circle of power
Warding -Protection from Energy, Elemental Bane, Protection from Poison, sanctuary, guard and wards, symbol of warding, resilient sphere, Magic Circle
Second Sight - See Invisibility, Tue Sight, Speak with Dead, Darkvision
Tongue of Fire - Comprehend Language, Command, Tongues, Telepatic bond, Shatter
Shadow - Shadow Blade, Darkness, Creation, Black tentacles, Shadow of Moil
Phantasm - Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Mislead, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, Crowm of Madness, Weird
Fate - Bless, Bane, Hex, Enhance Ability, Enhance Skill, Deathward
Knowledge - Identify, Read Thoughts, Legend Lore, Locate Object, Locate Person.
 
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TwoSix

The hero you deserve
I think an exercise to create about 20 spell spheres can be an exciting one!
Fire
Earth
Storm
Wind
Water
Plant
Beast
Charm
Enchant Item
Conjure Chaos
Conjure Law
Conjure Spirit
Create & Destroy Life
Exorcise Good & Evil
Warding
Second Sight
Tongue of Fire
Shadow
Phantasm
Heroic
Knowledge
I'm partial to the list from Spheres of Power (an excellent 3PP for Pathfinder):
Alteration
Blood
Conjuration
Creation
Dark
Death
Destruction
Divination
Enhancement
Fate
Illusion
Life
Light
Mind
Nature
Protection
Telekinesis
Time
War
Warp
Weather
 
Yea, that's definitely a very different exercise. I'd be happy to chime in if you wanted to flesh out the concept in a different thread, though. I'd be interested to see your conceptions of power sources.
I might make a thread about it.

I was just confused on which druid we were using. Similar to how the argument over fiends is going between wizards and clerics.

It's hard for me to split the spells like this so I likely just chime in here and there until we past 9th level and start rereviewing.


I think an exercise to create about 20 spell spheres can be an exciting one!

Fire
Earth
Storm
Wind
Water
Plant
Beast
Charm
Enchant Item
Conjure Chaos
Conjure Law
Conjure Spirit
Create & Destroy Life
Exorcise Good & Evil
Warding
Second Sight
Tongue of Fire
Shadow
Phantasm
Heroic
Knowledge
I wouldn't do that many unless I was giving schools their own. But that's another topic.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Are we pretty much giving up on the idea of Wizard Necromancers? Just asking.
I'm not, but I've been working with a alternate approach to wizards for the past few pages. I can't speak as to the thoughts of the other principals in the thread.

We've definitely moved away from Necromancy being "Arcane", though.
 
I don't have an issue with it, but we should probably keep all the Necro stuff in the same place so a Necromancer can still be built out of some class, even if it isn't wizard.
 

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