D&D 5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

[Minigiant]

I think, especially with named spells, we should tilt to wizards. Even if it gives them way more spells. Part of the wizard iconic aspects is spellbooks and it assumes a lot of spells to copy.

If anything, when the dispute is heavy we should opt to tag the spell for creation of a new spell for both classes and just fight over the spell name like Aggy's Scorcher.

 

[Tony Vargas]

...Oh, another one: Calm Emotions is a 'new' (like not in the 1e PH) classic cleric spell, while Suggestion has always been magic-user. and they're redundant on the same list

Also, again, thematically they fit better in their original lists. Calm Emotion at least vaguely connotes piety, Suggestion hypnosis and tricks.


Oh, and I'm OK with the Cleric getting Hold Person for the same reason the Wizard got Continual Light Flame - while they both got it in the classic game, the Cleric got at lower level.

 

[DND_Reborn]

...Oh, another one: Calm Emotions is a 'new' (like not in the 1e PH) classic cleric spell, while Suggestion has always been magic-user. and they're redundant on the same list

Also, again, thematically they fit better in their original lists. Calm Emotion at least vaguely connotes piety, Suggestion hypnosis and tricks.

Oh, and I'm OK with the Cleric getting Hold Person for the same reason the Wizard got Continual Light Flame - while they both got it in the classic game, the Cleric got at lower level.

Calm Emotions and Suggestion do very different things so I don't see them as redundant. However, given the more forceful nature of Suggestion it might warrant moving back to Wizard. I'm going to leave it in Cleric for now, but I'll bold it in the OP when I revise the lists so we'll know to consider it again later on.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Blindness/Deafness
Scorching Ray
Flaming Sphere
Suggestion
Misty Step
Hold Person
Shatter
Silence
Alter Self

I agree that S.Ray, Misty Steps, Shatter and Alter Self should be on the Wizard list.

Alter Self is more or less thematically redundant when you have wildshape anyway.
I think its ok to give Hold person to Cleric, but give Hold/Charm monsters to the wizard.
I would also prefer my wizard to have AoE and druids to have DoT spells (damage over time).

Still, flaming sphere feel really primal to me, I think it should be on the druid's list.
Suggestion could go to the Wizard if we give Calm Emotion and Enthrall to the Cleric.

 

[TwoSix]

Blindness/Deafness
Scorching Ray
Flaming Sphere
Suggestion
Misty Step
Hold Person
Shatter
Silence
Alter Self

That's most of my normal 2nd level spell lists for any build, with the exception of Mirror Image and maybe Web. Invisibility is not a tier 1 2nd level spell and I mostly don't take it. YMMV.

Misty Step and Suggestion hurt, no question. I generally favor most of the attack spells going towards Wizard (@Tony Vargas made a good point about ray spells above), so Scorching Ray is certainly one that might be moving over.

Other than that, they look pretty OK to me. There aren't a lot of amazing spells at 2nd level. 3rd level is where I think the balance considerations really need to come to the forefront.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Maybe we could change the appellation of ''cleric spell'' and ''wizard spells'' to Arcane Spell list, Divine Spell list and Primal spell list (or ''...Sphere'')? It would diminish the reflexes we have to see a class losing ''its stuff'' to another, instead seeing thematic grouping of spells that different casters can tap.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I agree that S.Ray, Misty Steps, Shatter and Alter Self should be on the Wizard list.

Alter Self is more or less thematically redundant when you have wildshape anyway.
I think its ok to give Hold person to Cleric, but give Hold/Charm monsters to the wizard.
I would also prefer my wizard to have AoE and druids to have DoT spells (damage over time).

Still, flaming sphere feel really primal to me, I think it should be on the druid's list.
Suggestion could go to the Wizard if we give Calm Emotion and Enthrall to the Cleric.

While I understand (and agree) with most of your thinking, there comes a point were balance has to come into play. The "feel" I am getting to to move a lot of spells to Wizard, but as it is the Wizard will start to outpace the lists of the other Big 3. Remember, for myself anyway, this is a Big 3, not a Big 1 and Medium 2.

 

[Fenris-77]

I'm not going to argue about some moving about, it was more about the totality of the list. Misty Step is one of my favorite 2nd level spells, but given the general Fey theme for Druids I think it makes sense to move it. However, losing both Scorching Ray and Flaming Sphere is a lot. In some ways more that latter than the former even though the former might look like a better spell objectively. FS as a BA spell really allows for some casting offense, and I think that belongs in the wizard camp, despite what the name of the spell is.

@vincegetorix - you can call 'em snot stacks if you like , we know who's going to access each list. I'm not trying to protect the Wizard, just point out some balance issues. Personally, none of my favorite 5e characters to play are full casters, and most aren't casters at all unless they're Warlocks. SO I don't really have a skin in this game.

 

[TwoSix]

Calm Emotions and Suggestion do very different things so I don't see them as redundant. However, given the more forceful nature of Suggestion it might warrant moving back to Wizard. I'm going to leave it in Cleric for now, but I'll bold it in the OP when I revise the lists so we'll know to consider it again later on.

Yea, Calm Emotions is much more of a combat spell in my mind (it helps nullify monsters with charm and fear effects, which happens a LOT in my experience).

That being sad, redundancy is not a bad thing at this step. We want each spell list to have serious holes in their arsenals. Distributing the spells such that everyone has a spell to handle major considerations isn't a positive for the goal of the exercise.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

While I understand (and agree) with most of your thinking, there comes a point were balance has to come into play. The "feel" I am getting to to move a lot of spells to Wizard, but as it is the Wizard will start to outpace the lists of the other Big 3. Remember, for myself anyway, this is a Big 3, not a Big 1 and Medium 2.

Yeah, that's also my fear. Its not to bad at level 2, but when we get to 3rd level, its gonna be hard, since I thing Wizard with get the lion's share of 3rd level spells.