D&D 5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Spells are the primary identity of the Big 3, so, yeah, I can see it. If a 'lesser' caster gets some unique magic, defining it as not a spell protects the identity of the corresponding primary caster as master over that realm of magic.
That's actually a pretty succinct description of the general gist. Although I would say also part of the point is that the caster classes exist to support the magic structure, and not vice versa. Define the power source by means of discrete, non-shared effects, and then let the class definitions flow out of the power source definition. (Which is something I think a lot of the people who favored 4e grid-filling also supported.)
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
See, this is where I'd pull the bell and get off the bus as a player. 9 of the 10 or so best 2nd level Wizard spells just just got offloaded for 'reasons'. Theme is cool, but that's the opposite of balance. Check please.
I did say in an earlier post this would be a net nerf. There's too many spells shared between classes for it not to be.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I would argue this point: the proposal isn't so much about making the "classes" distinct, it's about making "magic", and the different types of magic, distinct as a narrative entity.

Okay, but magic isn’t distinct,IMO, if the people using it aren’t.

And it certainly doesn’t make magic any less distinct, by any possible metric, to let the lesser magic users (still not clear on my sorcerers and warlocks are lesser magic users) have distinct spells that only they have.

Sure, the stated goal may not be to promote distinction in the classes, but there’s no reason to decrease distinction when it doesn’t even serve the function of making magic more distinct.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
My two cents of level 2 spells:

- I'd give Web to the druid and give wizard Misty Step.

For the orphan spells, here's my take:

Aganazzar's scorcher: Druid
Alter Self: Druid
Blindness/Deafness: Reverse Jesus = Cleric
Continual Flame: Wizard
Crown of Madness: Wizard
Flaming Sphere: Druid, rolling molten lava was a druid thing in Diablo II :p
Gentle Repose: Cleric
Locate Object: Wizard
Ray of Enfeeblement: Cleric
Scorching Ray: Druid
Shatter: Wizard
Silence: Cleric

I'm more

Aganazzar's scorcher: Wizard (feels more wizardy for some reason.
Alter Self: Druid
Blindness/Deafness: Cleric
Continual Flame: Wizard
Crown of Madness: Druid
Flaming Sphere: Druid
Gentle Repose: Cleric
Locate Object: Wizard
Ray of Enfeeblement: Cleric
Scorching Ray: Wizard (Ray's of fire feel more arcane.
Shatter: Druid. (braking things with sound feels more primal.
Silence: Cleric


Underlined spells are spell that I tag for swapping to nonDCW classes if they get spells.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I did say in an earlier post this would be a net nerf. There's too many spells shared between classes for it not to be.
That's not a net nerf. It's not like the other two caster classes also lost their best spells and it's tit for tat. This is just the Wizard taking one in the gut. You guys are going to do your thing, and I like the project generally, but this really isn't how I'd go about it. Vastly improving two classes at the expense of two others isn't really what I thought you guys were aimed at.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I think tying certain elements to the classes is something with a lot of potential. The real tough ones are fire, and lightning, because there's good reason to tie those to EVERY class. Maybe one or two elements that are exclusive to each class, and the rest are shared?

This is probably a good way to start the focus and sort of what we are already doing. If you want to draft up a first run-through, we can discuss it further with comments from the others.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
And it certainly doesn’t make magic any less distinct, by any possible metric, to let the lesser magic users (still not clear on my sorcerers and warlocks are lesser magic users) have distinct spells that only they have.
It makes the 'greater' magic users seem like they're missing something. It might well be that there are spells only attractive to 'lesser,' say beause they leverage martial weapon use (all those ranger archer spells), that the greater caster can technically cast, but never bothers to.

DISCUSSION POINTS:

Aganazzar's Scorcher (Druid*/Wizard) (S,W)
For the fire element, I am leaning towards Druid. Wizard already has Burning Hands and Fireball. What decent Fire spells does the Druid have really?
Classic Druid fire spells included: Produce Flame, Flameblade, Produce Fire, Protection f/Fire, Heat Metal, Wall of Fire, Fire Seeds, Conjure Fire Elemental, Firestorm and Chariot of Sustarre.

Faerie Fire being a light rather than fire spell.

Maybe I place more value on theme and tradition, but I'd just summarily give any named spell to the Wizard.

Alter Self (Druid*/Wizard) (S,W)
For the shape-shifting idea, as well as developing natural weapons, I thought Druid would be better for this spell. If it was an Illusion, such as Disguise Self, I would totally think more Wizard (which is why Disguise Self stayed with Wizard).
Disguise Self to the Wizard (illusionist) and Alter Self to the Druid sounds equitable.

The Druid eventually got A Thousand Faces, as really it's only claim to the spell anyway, so you could use that as an ability instead of a spell?

Blindness/Deafness (Cleric/ Druid*) (B,C,S,W)
I went with Cleric, TwoSix with Druid, which I get because this is a necro spell. I'd be fine with committing this to Druid given the somewhat curse-like nature of the spell--very witchy.
Classic 'Reversed' Cure/Remove spell for the old EHP, I'd say Cleric.

Continual Flame (Druid*/Wizard) (C,W)
I was thinking Druid but just remembered this isn't actual flame (no heat, no oxygen use). I guess we could think of it as an upgrade from Dancing Lights and commit it to Wizard?
Yep, Wizard. Continual Light was originally both a Cleric & a Wizard spell, but the Wiz got it a level lower. And, the continual flame version is less divine glory, more magic tricks.

Crown of Madness (Wizard/Cleric*) (B,S,War,W)
I think I understand why TwoSix went Cleric, given the Cleric/Warlock comparison, and it also affects humanoids, a core concept for Cleric in this exercise. However, given the brutal, controlling nature of this spell I thought Wizard would be a better fit.
It's originally a fey warlock spell, so you could toss it to the Druid on the fey-association theory.

Flaming Sphere (Wizard/Druid) (D,W)
Coin toss? ;) This could go either way for just about any reason. I think wherever we place Aganazzar's Scorcher, Flaming Sphere should go to the other list.
Originally Wizard. Not really very druidy in feel, IMHO. A druid would more reasonably conjure an elemental.

Gentle Repose (Cleric/ Druid*) (C,W)
Although necrotic, this spell is protection-oriented IMO and should fall under the Cleric's list.
Now you're getting into support spells where it's hard to say they should be exclusive. There'll be more as we continue.

Locate Object (Cleric/Wizard) (B,C,D,P,R,W)
Sigh... the "Locate" spells... I just don't know and I can see good arguments for any list really.
Any divination runs up against the issue that, IRL, all traditions of magic were big on divination.

Finding a lost something, though, feels more like a parlor trick than a miracle. Save Find the Path for the Cleric, let the wizard have Locate ____.

Ray of Enfeeblement (Cleric*/Druid*) (War,W)
Another classic wizard spell. Also, 4e "laser clerics" aside, rays should be the wizard's thing - it flirts with sci-fi more than the cleric.

Scorching Ray (Druid*/Wizard) (S,W)
Ah, another fire-based attack spell. There are a lot of those in 2nd level spells! No great thought about this one, Fire = Druid, but Wizard spell currently and at this point both classes have sufficient fire-attack spells. I think this will come down to a balance between the different fire spells and just who is better served and represented by which one.
IIRC, this was long ago broken out from magic-user the Flame Arrow spell. And it's a ray.

Shatter (Cleric*/Wizard) (B,S,War,W)
This is pretty much a straight AoE arcane spell, so I'll probably end up differing it, but man, I love the Cleric-Thunder concept a lot... sigh...
There's always Domain spell exceptions.

Silence (Cleric/Wizard*) (B,C,R)
For me this is a classic Cleric spell,
Agreed.
 
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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
That's not a net nerf. It's not like the other two caster classes also lost their best spells and it's tit for tat. This is just the Wizard taking one in the gut. You guys are going to do your thing, and I like the project generally, but this really isn't how I'd go about it. Vastly improving two classes at the expense of two others isn't really what I thought you guys were aimed at.
It isn't what we're aimed at IMO. Remember, this is a first run-through getting a lot of feedback from many people. For instance, there are spells that belonged to the other classes that have gone to Wizard as well.

BALANCE is a key factor for me (I'm a Libra--it's natural ;) ), along with theme. Just keep posting your concerns and understand we do take note of them. They might sit on the back-burner for a while until we get things done for the first draft, but they will be addressed.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
That's not a net nerf. It's not like the other two caster classes also lost their best spells and it's tit for tat. This is just the Wizard taking one in the gut. You guys are going to do your thing, and I like the project generally, but this really isn't how I'd go about it. Vastly improving two classes at the expense of two others isn't really what I thought you guys were aimed at.
You might have to run me through the spells that Wizards lost that were critical, and that Clerics and Druids got that were major boosts, because we're having a disconnect. Wizards still have Mirror Image and Invisibility at 2nd level, they seem fine to me.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I'm not hating here, just pointing out that the Wizard got smacked and for no real gain. The proposed 2nd level list for them sucks, not to put too fine a point on it. There's exactly one spell left on their list that I have ever selected for any Wizard character I've ever played, and nothing added that takes up any of that slack that I noticed. Anyway, just registering my thoughts, that's all.

The spells they lost (some of these are in the discussion section, but the consensus so far seem to be 'not wizard'):

Blindness/Deafness
Scorching Ray
Flaming Sphere
Suggestion
Misty Step
Hold Person
Shatter
Silence
Alter Self

That's most of my normal 2nd level spell lists for any build, with the exception of Mirror Image and maybe Web. Invisibility is not a tier 1 2nd level spell and I mostly don't take it. YMMV.
 

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