D&D 5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

[DND_Reborn]

Note: I'm evaluating the spells under the concept I was discussing back on post 188. Namely, wizards get spells from every list, limited by opposition schools, sorcerers and/or warlocks are the primary casters for arcane. I've found thinking in those terms really has helped my refine my concepts on some of the more difficult spells.

Hold Monster (B,S,War,W) - "Monster is Arcane, Person is Divine, Plants and Animals are Primal" idea makes a ton of sense, I'd go with it. Arcane.

Scrying (B,C,D,War,W) - Knowledge gathering, plus the "space bending" aspect of the spell point me to Arcane. I think Primal casters would just ask a fey to go spy for them, and a Divine caster would Commune to gain information.

Danse Macabre - I'm fully on board with evil priests raising the dead. Divine.

Immolation/Flame Strike - I'd swap them, personally. Flame Strike is heaven-sent, and does radiant damage. Immolation sets someone's insides on fire, which feels like a powerful witch curse. Flame Strike - Divine, Immo - Primal.

You know, I began a second spreadsheet using this idea and I will share it once the current iteration is complete. Funny thing is, it might be a better way of going about it.

I'm actually leaning back towards making demons be arcane, celestials be divine, and everything else be primal.

Again, I get the thought process but it smacks too much in the idea CLERIC = GOOD and WIZARD = EVIL. It pigeonholes things IMO. Can you convince me otherwise?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Only time I played 1e, the party druid had to use wooden, stone, gem, bone, or single metal nonalloy weapons. The DM was weird so my memory of rules might be off.

That is certainly possible LOL. I could understand a DM uber-enforcing the "no metal" thing but it wasn't typical IME.

I would have to disagree with it being find for Rangers to a point.

Since OD&D, rangers had access to Divination and Communication items and spells. This originally was to mimic Aragorn's use of items that did this.

But as editions evolves, divination and communication have been core to the ranger experience. Especially as does gained ways to defeat mundane tracking.

Ranger is the tracking class. You can't track flyers and teleporters and people with Pass without Trace with all the lower Divination spells.

So limiting ranger to druid spells would require giving rangers a way to magical track people who leave no footsteps nor trails. Now I don't know if we are going to give rangers omniscience.

This isn't a problem for paladins as all they need for their job is Find Steed and Smites.

Again, I point out, other than those three spells (Alarm, Silence, Nondetection), Rangers in this exercise have precisely the same spells (a lot more, actually) than they currently have in 5E. Are you upset with the default Ranger spell list in 5E as well? If you are happy with 5E Ranger spells RAW, then I don't understand why you are finding so much wrong with this.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Hold Monster (B,S,War,W) - "Monster is Arcane, Person is Divine, Plants and Animals are Primal" idea makes a ton of sense, I'd go with it. Arcane.

Scrying (B,C,D,War,W) - Knowledge gathering, plus the "space bending" aspect of the spell point me to Arcane. I think Primal casters would just ask a fey to go spy for them, and a Divine caster would Commune to gain information.

Danse Macabre - I'm fully on board with evil priests raising the dead. Divine.

Immolation/Flame Strike - I'd swap them, personally. Flame Strike is heaven-sent, and does radiant damage. Immolation sets someone's insides on fire, which feels like a powerful witch curse. Flame Strike - Divine, Immo - Primal.

I agree. I've update the 5th level list and I (for one) am pretty happy with it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

UPDATE: 6th level is ready for discussion. Have at it!

 

[Minigiant]

That is certainly possible LOL. I could understand a DM uber-enforcing the "no metal" thing but it wasn't typical IME.



Again, I point out, other than those three spells (Alarm, Silence, Nondetection), Rangers in this exercise have precisely the same spells (a lot more, actually) than they currently have in 5E. Are you upset with the default Ranger spell list in 5E as well? If you are happy with 5E Ranger spells RAW, then I don't understand why you are finding so much wrong with this.

I HATE THE DEFAULT RANGER LIST SO MUCH.

so much
so much
First 5e campaign

Wizard: Track the dragon, Mini.
Me: I can't. You let him fly away, Jerry.
Fighter/Pally: Don't look at me. I can only ride horses and smite things.
Me: I could've tracked his necklace but somebody....
Rogue/Cleric: The church demand tithes!

 

[TwoSix]

You know, I began a second spreadsheet using this idea and I will share it once the current iteration is complete. Funny thing is, it might be a better way of going about it.

That's fair. I don't think it changes too much, but I find it easier to leverage things out of Arcane if I know wizards can still get them no matter what list they might be on.

Again, I get the thought process but it smacks too much in the idea CLERIC = GOOD and WIZARD = EVIL. It pigeonholes things IMO. Can you convince me otherwise?

I'd argue that even going back to early editions, demons specifically have always stood apart from any divine hierarchies. Demon lords aren't gods, but they're pretty close to gods and don't have any traditional gods that stand above them. (Lloth might be the only exception, but she's always been weird from a lore standpoint, and has her own retinue of demonic servitors apart from the normal demons.) Even some of the CE gods in print work with demons, but they aren't part of the god's retinues the way angels are for most of the good gods.

More recent lore makes that division even more explicit, the Dawn War pantheon has demons as explicitly not part of the divine hierarchy, and Eberron has demons as part of either Khyber or some of the darker planes, but not the servants of gods.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

On the ''Summon/Conjure X''
I think I'd let demon as a cleric thing (up until we have a Conjure Devil spell).
To the Wizard, I'd give Minor Elemental, because it summon mostly intelligent-ish elemental creature, and give Conjure Elemental to the Druid because its mostly use to conjure THE Elementals and elemental archons, which are more or less mindless primal energy shaped in crude form). Druid still have Conjure best, fey and Woodland being.

I will steal Planar Ally and Gate and give it to the Wizard, because I feel they are the next in the ''contact other plane'' spell tree.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I HATE THE DEFAULT RANGER LIST SO MUCH.

so much
so much
First 5e campaign

Wizard: Track the dragon, Mini.
Me: I can't. You let him fly away, Jerry.
Fighter/Pally: Don't look at me. I can only ride horses and smite things.
Me: I could've tracked his necklace but somebody....
Rogue/Cleric: The church demand tithes!

I get your point. Unfortunately, we are working with the current 5E spell lists and the goal was to make certain Rangers and Paladins (and whatever half-caster Arcane we decide--I favor Warlock) has access to as many of their current spells as possible. What else they should have is IMO preference.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Orpahn spells level 6

Chain Lightning: I think its ''wild'' enough as a spell to fit on the Primal's.
Circle of Death: Cleric
Create Homunculus: Wizard all-in
Create Undead: Cleric, mummy-making and all that
Eyebite: It was a Fey-warlock thing in 4e, so Arcane or Primal.
Guards and Wards: Cleric
Harm: Destroy life = Druid ?(Improved ''Blight'')
Magic Jar: Parlor Trick = Wizard
Mental Prison: Cleric
Move Earth: Geomancy = Druid
Otto's Irresistible Dance: hard mind control = Wizard
Scatter: Fey-trick = Druid
True Seeing: Cleric
Word of Recall: I know its a Cleric only spell, but it feels so much more Wizard-y to me.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'd argue that even going back to early editions, demons specifically have always stood apart from any divine hierarchies. Demon lords aren't gods, but they're pretty close to gods and don't have any traditional gods that stand above them. (Lloth might be the only exception, but she's always been weird from a lore standpoint, and has her own retinue of demonic servitors apart from the normal demons.) Even some of the CE gods in print work with demons, but they aren't part of the god's retinues the way angels are for most of the good gods.

More recent lore makes that division even more explicit, the Dawn War pantheon has demons as explicitly not part of the divine hierarchy, and Eberron has demons as part of either Khyber or some of the darker planes, but not the servants of gods.

Hmm. Well, TBH, I am not as familiar with the distinction in 5E and working more from prior editions (mainly 1E and 2E). If we can strike a balance in spell number and power, I am certainly willing to defer demons to Wizard if others agree.

If anyone feels inclined to do the legwork, it would be interesting to tackle a compiled list of the summoning/ conjuring spells to see which aspect falls best where. I would, but I am leaving in a while and won't have much time before then.