Richard Baker on Orcus and Deity Slaying

[Jack99]

This all sounds so World of Warcraft. And so not the D&D I've been playing and enjoying for the past 28+ years. To each their own, I guess, but talk of god killing being enshrined in the rules is what first tipped me off that 4E was probably not for me. Sure, minor demon lords, maybe even weak avatars, weakened fallen gods or other quasi divine things, perhaps. But killing a greater god? Sheesh. That's just way too munchkin for my liking.

I just want to point out that if you kill every single monster in WoW, you only kill one god (in AQ40, can't recall it's name, it has been a long time). So the ability to challenge the gods (and kill them) has very little to do with WoW. If you do want 4e to sound like a MMORG ripoff, you should have compared it to EQ, where you get to kill at least 30+ (could be much more, I don't really know anymore) various gods across the different expansions.

Not that you will be correct, as others have pointed out, the ability to kill gods was in the older editions, which all pre-dates the various MMORGs.

 

[Hussar]

This all sounds so World of Warcraft. And so not the D&D I've been playing and enjoying for the past 28+ years. To each their own, I guess, but talk of god killing being enshrined in the rules is what first tipped me off that 4E was probably not for me. Sure, minor demon lords, maybe even weak avatars, weakened fallen gods or other quasi divine things, perhaps. But killing a greater god? Sheesh. That's just way too munchkin for my liking.

You can kill gods in WOW? I gotta start playing that game.

In any case, I'll third the notion that apotheosis should be an epic level quest. That would be groovy.

 

[GeorgeFields]

I remember those days, and now she's all grown up and become a full fledge greater god. Brings a tear to the eye. Been a long time coming too; she's a fine example of climbing the ladder to success. Granted each rung was a dagger in someone's back she stepped on, but she did it all on her own.

Yep, our little spider demon is all grown up. :sniff sniff:

If you do want 4e to sound like a MMORG ripoff, you should have compared it to EQ, where you get to kill at least 30+ (could be much more, I don't really know anymore) various gods across the different expansions.

From what I've read and heard, one doesn't need this article to do that; but that's just my opinion.

 

[WyzardWhately]

Forget Lolth. Her ass should still be just a really major arch-demon that can grant spells, or at MOST some kind of least goddess. Now, my man Asmodeus I'm proud of.

 

[Dausuul]

Oh, it's not that I personally like seeing stats for gods at all, or that I even like the idea of being able to kill gods to begin with.
If anything at all, D&D 4.0 should be critisized that they're still allowing gods to be killed, the same way as they still make Raise Dead and other non-transforming-you-into-an-undead-type ressurection effects possible, like in all prior editions. Those are sacred cows that still haven't been slaughtered. Perhaps in D&D 5.0, we'll see the changes needed.

*shrug* This is one of those things where the designers have to ask:

#1: How many people want killable gods versus how many people want unkillable gods?
#2: Which house-rule is harder to implement: Killable gods in a system where they are unkillable by default, or unkillable gods in a system where they are killable by default?

I don't know for certain what the answer to #1 is, but anecdotal evidence based on this thread suggests that the majority want killable (if extremely hard to kill) gods.

The answer to #2 is that it's far easier to implement a house-rule changing killable gods to unkillable gods than to go the other way. If gods are killable by default, all you have to do is say, "Gods are unkillable. Deal widdit." If gods are unkillable by default, then you have to figure out what stats they ought to have, what the impact of a god's death would be, et cetera.

So, I rather suspect gods will remain killable in future editions.

 

[Desdichado]

Forget Lolth. Her ass should still be just a really major arch-demon that can grant spells, or at MOST some kind of least goddess. Now, my man Asmodeus I'm proud of.

Bah. There shouldn't be any functional difference between what you describe and the gods anyway.

Fan of CR 30+ Archdevils and Demon Lords Spikey

 

[dm4hire]

When it comes to killing gods I have often looked at it as you are killing a figurehead of a profile and thereby assume their place or take their position if you are mortal or steal their position if you are another deity.

 

[WyzardWhately]

Bah. There shouldn't be any functional difference between what you describe and the gods anyway.

Fan of CR 30+ Archdevils and Demon Lords Spikey

You know, I'm pretty down with that, too. In my old campaign, the only difference between the gods and the top-tier demons/devils was which side they were on. And that being caught worshipping the demons/devils anywhere civilized would get you killed.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Gods in FR where always killable...

But: in 3.x we had stats for gods which were pretty useless. Gods are so much more powerfull than any mortal, that those stats were just a waste of space.

 

[Mirtek]

Gods in FR where always killable...

FR deities were killable, but only if the killing blow came from annother deity or the aid of annother deity. Not even during the times of troubles did a deity die by the pure hand of a mortal without divine aid. In 3e the F&P web enhancement re-introduced the immortality vs. mortals rule.

In the FR we have:

Borem -> not really slain but more knocked out and even this with secret aid of Jergal
Mystryl -> chose suicid to end Karsus's spell prematurely. Could have waited until the normal end and have been none the worse for wear
Moander -> slain with the help of Tymora
Myrkul -> slain at a point when Midnight was already filled with the energies of Mystra
Bhaal -> slain with Mask
Selvetarm -> most likely slain by either Elistrae or Lolth at the sava table
Kiaranshalee -> most likely slain by Lolth at the sava table