Richard Baker on Orcus and Deity Slaying

[UndeadScottsman]

I just want to point out that if you kill every single monster in WoW, you only kill one god (in AQ40, can't recall it's name, it has been a long time). So the ability to challenge the gods (and kill them) has very little to do with WoW. If you do want 4e to sound like a MMORG ripoff, you should have compared it to EQ, where you get to kill at least 30+ (could be much more, I don't really know anymore) various gods across the different expansions.

Not that you will be correct, as others have pointed out, the ability to kill gods was in the older editions, which all pre-dates the various MMORGs.

Two gods.. Though the first (Hakkar the Soulflayer In Zul'gurrub) is probably an extremely lesser god, and the second, C'thun, is one of the "Old Gods" who were defeated by the Titans. C'thun is actually still pretty badly weakened from his fight with the Titans, explaining why the players are able to slay him.

 

[Jack99]

Two gods.. Though the first (Hakkar the Soulflayer In Zul'gurrub) is probably an extremely lesser god, and the second, C'thun, is one of the "Old Gods" who were defeated by the Titans. C'thun is actually still pretty badly weakened from his fight with the Titans, explaining why the players are able to slay him.

Ah yeah, C'thun, that was the one I was thinking off. It's been a while. As to Hakkar, I must admit I had forgotten about him, but isn't he merely the son of an Old God? I must confess my WoW-lore isn't super-strong, in WoW, it was always more about ze loot for me

Cheers

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Definitely a campaign setting thing. I'd never allow a character to kill a god .... after all, Hercules was essentially a demigod in the stories, but would he have been able to take on Zeus with any chance of winning? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Zil]

I guess that you are aware of the existence of those deity-books with their stats that TSR and Wizards of the Coast produced, aren't you?

Killing gods in whatever form has always been possible in D&D in all editions. Complaining about D&D 4.0 making it possible to kill gods is baseless, as you could do that in all prior editions too, and only the preferences of the Game Master and/or the Players involved decided if they really wanted to use those rule supplementals.

"Munchkining" to the point of killing gods is quite normal in D&D. That's what epic levels are here for, and all that D&D 4.0 does is making epic now a core rule, instead of supplemental.

And it still falls to the gaming group itself if they really want to kill a god/arch-demon/duke of hell/my little pony in their game.

Yes, what you say is indeed true. Back in 1E there were stats for various gods (400 HP seemed to be the max hit points for any god for example), but it was never codified in the main rule books or discussed amongst the game designers in such an open way that they were designing the game with an eye to allow and encourage god killing. That is what is different now. The new game seems to be geared towards moving up to a much higher power level for the players with the opponents at these epic levels being various demonlords and godlings.

 

[Klaus]

Definitely a campaign setting thing. I'd never allow a character to kill a god .... after all, Hercules was essentially a demigod in the stories, but would he have been able to take on Zeus with any chance of winning? I seriously doubt it.

While he was alive (he only ascended to full godhood after death), he took on Gigantes (which were godlike in their own right).

 

[Zil]

I just want to point out that if you kill every single monster in WoW, you only kill one god (in AQ40, can't recall it's name, it has been a long time). So the ability to challenge the gods (and kill them) has very little to do with WoW. If you do want 4e to sound like a MMORG ripoff, you should have compared it to EQ, where you get to kill at least 30+ (could be much more, I don't really know anymore) various gods across the different expansions.

Not that you will be correct, as others have pointed out, the ability to kill gods was in the older editions, which all pre-dates the various MMORGs.

The WOW comparison comparison was more the concept of gathering together a huge gaming party of epic to take down the big uber-boss / quasi divine thing. Okay, I admit that comparison is a bit tenuous - I originally misread something and thought the party size of epic heroes was 30 rather than 10 members.

Still, I do stand by the fact that none of the previous versions of the rules really encouraged players to kill gods in such a core way as Rich Baker seems to be suggesting now. Sure, there have been stats in 1E and 3E via each version's Deities & Demigods, but neither of these books were ever really presented primarily as monster manuals for player opponents. Some munchkin 1E groups certainly would have used them that way, but the D&D core game designers never promoted their use in that way.

That is what is different now.

 

[orangefruitbat]

Of course you could kill them - why else would you bother with stats?

Then again, if you were hardcore 1E, you would just kill Thor with a Push spell.

Yes, what you say is indeed true. Back in 1E there were stats for various gods (400 HP seemed to be the max hit points for any god for example), but it was never codified in the main rule books or discussed amongst the game designers in such an open way that they were designing the game with an eye to allow and encourage god killing. That is what is different now. The new game seems to be geared towards moving up to a much higher power level for the players with the opponents at these epic levels being various demonlords and godlings.

 

[Jack99]

The WOW comparison comparison was more the concept of gathering together a huge gaming party of epic to take down the big uber-boss / quasi divine thing. Okay, I admit that comparison is a bit tenuous - I originally misread something and thought the party size of epic heroes was 30 rather than 10 members.

Still, I do stand by the fact that none of the previous versions of the rules really encouraged players to kill gods in such a core way as Rich Baker seems to be suggesting now. Sure, there have been stats in 1E and 3E via each version's Deities & Demigods, but neither of these books were ever really presented primarily as monster manuals for player opponents. Some munchkin 1E groups certainly would have used them that way, but the D&D core game designers never promoted their use in that way.

That is what is different now.

Fair enough, however, you should bear in mind that this is one designer's word about this aspect of the game, and we have no real way of knowing if this is a way of playing that they all advocate.

Cheers

 

[AZRogue]

I suggest that those who don't want to kill Gods not plan any adventures where their players can kill Gods. I think that this may save the world as we know it ... if we're all careful.

But as for me, those buggers are taking a dirt nap while sipping their morning coffee and looking over their "prayer reports".

 

[med stud]

Yes, what you say is indeed true. Back in 1E there were stats for various gods (400 HP seemed to be the max hit points for any god for example), but it was never codified in the main rule books or discussed amongst the game designers in such an open way that they were designing the game with an eye to allow and encourage god killing. That is what is different now. The new game seems to be geared towards moving up to a much higher power level for the players with the opponents at these epic levels being various demonlords and godlings.

He said that if the DM wants to have a god as the final enemy of a campaign, ending at level 30, he can do so by giving the PCs some kind of edge. In a straight up fight, I read his statement as if a party of level 30 PCs can't kill a god.

I can't see how that makes the game geared to have god killing- campaigns. I read his descriptions of Orcus the same; a top level enemy, a campaign ender, but not the monster of room #2 in a level 28 dungeon.