D&D 5E Rogue and Archer Character Sheets

[pemerton]

So far so good in the adventure. Not as good as B10

B10 is a high standard to reach!

 

[synthapse]

I'm pretty disappointed in the 5e Rogue. They lowered the bonus of Expertise from an extra +5 to an extra +2 that scales up, lowered the extra skills from 3 to 2--remember, every class gets one extra skill already--lowered the number of expertise skills from 4 to 2, lowered the jump boost from 10 extra feet horizontal and 5 vertical to 3-5 feet horizontal IF you get a running jump.

Any one of those might be okay in a vacuum, but taken altogether it makes the rogue just crippled from its earlier version.

Compare "I'm the best at skills. I get 3 more skills than anyone, and 4 of my skills have an extra +5 bonus." to "I'm the best at skills. I get 2 more skills than anyone and 2 of them get a +2 bonus."

And the only, ONLY time that an extra 3 feet on a long jump is ever going to come up is if the GM looks at the rogue's sheet and says "Um...yeah, did I say 15 feet? I meant 17 feet."

Rogues still get 3 more proficiencies than other classes. Compare the archer (4 skills, plus carpenter's tools and land vehicles-- 6 total) with the rogue (6 skills, plus thieves tools, playing cards, and carpenter's tools-- 9 total).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm pretty disappointed in the 5e Rogue. They lowered the bonus of Expertise from an extra +5 to an extra +2 that scales up, lowered the extra skills from 3 to 2--remember, every class gets one extra skill already--lowered the number of expertise skills from 4 to 2, lowered the jump boost from 10 extra feet horizontal and 5 vertical to 3-5 feet horizontal IF you get a running jump.

Any one of those might be okay in a vacuum, but taken altogether it makes the rogue just crippled from its earlier version.

Compare "I'm the best at skills. I get 3 more skills than anyone, and 4 of my skills have an extra +5 bonus." to "I'm the best at skills. I get 2 more skills than anyone and 2 of them get a +2 bonus."

And the only, ONLY time that an extra 3 feet on a long jump is ever going to come up is if the GM looks at the rogue's sheet and says "Um...yeah, did I say 15 feet? I meant 17 feet."

I have to admit, I'm pretty surprised by these Rogue changes.

We were all arguing over the Rogue from October, a few weeks ago, and I think people made some great points about how October Rogue's big skill bonuses and lots of extra skills and so on gave him a really big edge that could be leveraged in combat. And we were going on the Assassin Rogue, too, not the non-Assassin one. In the end, I kind of bought their arguments (whether I showed it or not! ), and assumed we'd see a skills-y Rogue in 5E.

Seems like this has gone the other way, though - there's LESS, waaaaaaay less of a skill gap between this Rogue and the other classes. He's much less of a skill monkey, and isn't going to be able to leverage those skills in the same way with much lower values.

HOWEVER, his SA has some interesting changes. First it's nerfed to only work with Dex-based attacks (love to know the reasoning there, whether that's aesthetic or balance or both), second nerfed to not work when you have Disadvantage (seems needlessly corner-case, as you're unlikely to hit with Disadvantage anyway - I'm not saying it's wrong, it just seems like rules for the sake of rules) even if you could otherwise use it. But then it's damage is buffed steeply. +1d6 at first, still, but then +2d6 at 3rd, instead of 5th, and then +3d6 at 5th (which takes until 8th with October). Assuming that damage trend continues (which it might not, who knows?), we'll be looking at much higher SA values, giving a DPR is much scarier and more 4E-like.

So I kind of feel like WotC listened to my whinging about Rogues not doing enough damage.

But I kind of wish they didn't take the skills away. I dunno how I feel about all this!

(Also boo to SA being restricted to Dex-attacks because that means Jean Tannen can't use SA! BOOO! DOWN WITH THAT SORT OF THING! He's the classic Fighter/Rogue, well, alongside our friends from Lankhmar)

EDIT - I like the at the Fighter is basically "ROBIN HOOD!!!".

 

[Thaumaturge]

(Also boo to SA being restricted to Dex-attacks because that means Jean Tannen can't use SA! BOOO! DOWN WITH THAT SORT OF THING! He's the classic Fighter/Rogue, well, alongside our friends from Lankhmar)

Maybe the sneak attack restriction is dependant upon the type of rogue one is? This is pretty clearly a "thief". Maybe the "thug" or "assassin" subclass doesn't have that restriction.

And those types would make more sense for a fighter/rogue who is using strength-based weapons. If one wants to be a sneaky fighter/rogue, then one makes a dex-based character who uses finesse weapons.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Maybe the sneak attack restriction is dependant upon the type of rogue one is? This is pretty clearly a "thief". Maybe the "thug" or "assassin" subclass doesn't have that restriction.

And those types would make more sense for a fighter/rogue who is using strength-based weapons. If one wants to be a sneaky fighter/rogue, then one makes a dex-based character who uses finesse weapons.

Thaumaturge.

That'd be cool, hope that's it. Jean is certainly a thug (I mean that in the nicest possible way!).

 

[Thaumaturge]

That'd be cool, hope that's it. Jean is certainly a thug (I mean that in the nicest possible way!).

Gentleman Bastard looks interesting, for those who also have no idea who Jean Tannen is.

And now you've gone and introduced me to a new series I want to read. AND THERE ARE ALREADY TOO MANY BOOKS IN MY LIFE!

Thanks.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Zaukrie]

Great, great, great book. Followed by two good books.

 

[Uller]

So I kind of feel like WotC listened to my whinging about Rogues not doing enough damage.

But I kind of wish they didn't take the skills away. I dunno how I feel about all this!

Haha...careful what you wish for...

I prefer a more skilly rogue. This one seems a bit more ftr/rog but I'm willing to give it a try. The nerf of expertise from +5 is welcome but I was not expecting it to only apply to two skills. Maybe you get more at higher levels?

 

[Thaumaturge]

Great, great, great book. Followed by two good books.

And if one is ridiculous, like me, one can grab the kindle version + the audiobook version for $8.59 total.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Gentleman Bastard looks interesting, for those who also have no idea who Jean Tannen is.

And now you've gone and introduced me to a new series I want to read. AND THERE ARE ALREADY TOO MANY BOOKS IN MY LIFE!

Thanks.

Thaumaturge.

Ha-ha!

The first one really great. The second two... opinions vary. But the first stands alone very well. So at least it's only one "must read"!

Maybe you get more at higher levels?

Ah, could be, to lower L1 choices.