Rogue CA and Thrown Dagger

[Istar]

New to 4e we are trying to get to grips with CA and thrown Daggers.

The rogue with first strike in first round of a battle can get in a sneak attack if he gets Initiative ahead of one enemy.

After that can he circle the battle and dive in from the flank with sneak attacks.

One question I have with a thrown dagger, is if the Rogue gets CA throwing his dagger from the flank of the battle ?
Or does he need one of his party to be engaging an enemy ?
Or does he need to be in mellee as well, and a thrown dagger wont get CA ?

Another question is with Magical Daggers, where the manuals say that "All" magic daggers (or thrown weapons) return to the throwers hand after the strike, and I assume the weidler can then repeat.

Have is mis-read or mis-understood or mis-interpreted this ?

Also the old versions of D&D has a chance of hitting your own party if firing missile into mellee ?

I am thinking of going Elven Rogue with far throw to get a decent dagger throw range and use the elves faster speed and the elf skill where you an run and fire wihout penalty, to try and get CA but also stay out of the mellee, at the start anyway, to extend the Rogue's durability in battle.

ie. Let the Barbarian / Ranger soak up some of the early hurt

 

[DracoSuave]

A rogue with a dagger can do both. It takes the same attack roll and damage to attack in melee as in ranged.

There is no penalty for firing into melee.

You can get combat advantage from flanking only if you're the flanker, ie, adjacent, so ranged is a bad idea, but again, you go melee anyways.

Rogues at ranged use stealth and the impressive amount of ability they have to get CA... the list is long.

 

[Istar]

Your the Rogue master Draco I see your posts everywhere.

So you can only get CA if you are next to the target, ranged flank does nothing.

But canuse other skills to keep CA going, then move in when needed.

 

[DracoSuave]

Correct, but keep in mind, the list of things that give you combat advantage is huge. Not only do your skills do it, but you should find your party's encounter and dailys have ways as well. Coordinate with them and you should find your Combat Advantage turns going up to 100%. There's no reason a rogue has to flank if he doesn't want to.

But if you -do- find yourself in a flanking position, and you're a dagger thrower, there's absolutely no reason -not- to use a melee attack. You use the same attribute (All rogue attacks are Dex based) and deal decent damage as well. Once you get a magic dagger, you don't even need to worry about being without a weapon.

Also, even if you've got no avenue for Combat Advantage, you can still use Bluff to create a distraction, thus giving you Combat Advantage as a standard action, or to cover you while you find concealment, allowing you to Stealth. Then from Stealth, you can use Deft Strike to come out, attack unseen (which gives you CA, you don't lose stealth until the action is ended), then use your movement to get back behind cover.

Then you start looking at the Rogue utilities...

 

[Istar]

So the Magic Dagger does come back then ?
All of them.

Olde D&D it was only the specific dwarven hand axe that could do that.

THis new version with daggers and spears flying back to you for re-throwing is a little weird, but good.

Its not a minor action to catch it when it returns.

I just find it hard to visualise grievously wounding someone with a thrown dagger to the heart and it wrench's itself out of the victima and flies back to daddy.

If this is the case the greater Elven speed, the +1 to speed feat and Elven range attack feat, and far throw, become quite powerful ?

 

[CapnZapp]

In 4E all thrown weapons have what in 3E you'd call the Returning property by default. See "Thrown Weapons", PHB page 232.


Edit: Actually, it's even better* as the weapon is returned as soon as the ranged attack is resolved, allowing you to use one and the same weapon for repeated attacks during one and the same round. Or in other words, once you have a single magic thrown weapon, you never need another.
* some would say "video-gamishly simplistic" but that's a completely different matter...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Or in other words, once you have a single magic thrown weapon, you never need another.

Unless you're throwing your daggers for an attack which isn't a ranged attack, of course - Blinding Barrage is the first example that comes to mind...

-Hyp.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Unless you're throwing your daggers for an attack which isn't a ranged attack, of course - Blinding Barrage is the first example that comes to mind...

-Hyp.

From customer service (via the compiled cs replies thread):

Q: Rogue area attack powers such as Blinding Barrage work with the crossbow, sling, or light thrown weapons. Sling and hand crossbow are "Load Free". Normal crossbow is not. p217 says "If a power allows you to hit multiple targets, the additional load time is accounted for in the power." This doesn't appear to apply to light throwing weapons. If shuriken or daggers are used with Blinding Barrage, are they limited by the requirement to use a minor action to draw each item, making Quick Draw a necessity to use these items with this type of power?

A: If you are using a Magic throwing weapon, it will hit all the targets and return to your hand (yeah Magic is that awesome). If you are using mundane throwing weapons, you will need one for each attack roll made and you will need three Quick draw feat to be able to draw and use them all.

 

[BASHMAN]

This may sound dumb, but in 4e, magically, if an enemy is surrounded by guys with swords, he is somehow better able to pay attention to your thrown dagger than he is to the swords-- i.e. they all get flanking bonuses, and you get jack and squat. Even though common sense would dictate that a person being hacked at by swordsmen would be distracted, ergo less able to defend against a thrown dagger, D&D physics dictates this is not so.

My solution to this is that an enemy who is flanked grants CA to all opponents, not only the ones flanking him. The downside to this as a GM is that the PCs will get off more hits, more sneak attacks, etc. The upside is that your MONSTERS will get more use out of special abilities that key off CA...

 

[Nikosandros]

Unless you're throwing your daggers for an attack which isn't a ranged attack, of course - Blinding Barrage is the first example that comes to mind...

Technically you are correct, but it seems to me somewhat likely that this is a mistake in the rules and not what the designers intended.

If the rules are correct as written, weapon powers like blinding barrage are unduly weakened.