Rogue Crossbowmen: The ultimate sniper?

[hong]

Sneak attack might not need to be limited to 30' if Combat Advantage can only be had within 30'.

I would not be surprised to see some abilities that, once they hit, give Combat Advantage to all allies for 1 round, which would give sniper rogues a way to sneak attack at a distance, but we don't know that the 30' limit on sneak attack wasn't actually absorbed by Combat Advantage.

There's no mention of a 30' range limit to Combat Advantage, so people are generally assuming it's unlimited range. However, the hand crossbow, which is what rogues start with, is likely to be point-blank only.

 

[Irda Ranger]

It looks like the 4E rogue is going to be like the 3E monk. You're not meant to go 20 levels with it, unless you want a _really_ specialised character; it's there to provide a strong identity and a base for multiclassing.

You're not expected to go 20 levels in any 4E class. You're expected to go 10. Then you choose a Paragon Path.

 

[Keenath]

You're not expected to go 20 levels in any 4E class. You're expected to go 10. Then you choose a Paragon Path.

Actually, paragon path stacks on TOP of the class levels you're taking. So, for example, you take 10 levels of Ranger, then pick the Arcane Archer paragon path, and you take 10 more levels of ranger -- each of which also gives you a level of Arcane Archer benefits.

Or you could take those ten levels as a rogue, multiclassing while you're still getting Arcane Archer stuff.

Or you could have 5 Ranger levels and 5 Rogue levels going in, and continue that multiclass progression while also getting an Arcane Archer benefit every level.

I'm not sure how the prereqs for the Paragon Paths work, though, or what happens if you manage to not meet ANY of them -- or even if it's POSSIBLE to fail to meet some of them. They may have prereqs like "1 level of ranger".

Also it's not clear exactly how the Arcane Archer fits in -- for example, does it actually give you flat abilities? Does it add a list of options that you have to actively select in place of base-class options (such as adding a new list of powers you can select INSTEAD of taking a new Ranger power)? We don't really know. Probably a mix of the two, I suspect.

However, point being, R&C made it clear that paragon paths and epic destinies are stacked on top of a continuing progression of base classes, unlike PRCs.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Right. But I think Irda Ranger was trying to say that a paragon path may change the nature of how rogue levels work, to the point that they enable a versatility of archetypes while allowing you to stick with straight rogue all the way to 30.

 

[kennew142]

Also note that the rogue is only proficient with the hand crossbow which is pretty small.

We still don't know what proficiency means in 4e. It would be odd that rogues couldn't use other weapons. One poster in another thread posited that proficiency brings a bonus, or special ability rather than non-proficiency bringing a penalty. In the end we don't know.

Also, there could be feat/power allowing the rogue to sneak attack at range. 3e includes one (I can't remember the name or source, and I don't have my books at work) that allows the rogue to ready an action and sneak attack an opponent struck in melee by an ally.

 

[catsclaw227]

Also note that the rogue is only proficient with the hand crossbow which is pretty small.

Right, but as we have seen, other weapon proficiencies can come from race. An elf would have proficiency with bow, so it's quite possible that a human might have crossbow proficiency.

 

[Voss]

Right. But I think Irda Ranger was trying to say that a paragon path may change the nature of how rogue levels work, to the point that they enable a versatility of archetypes while allowing you to stick with straight rogue all the way to 30.

Ah, that could explain why sneak attack is pretty... lame during the change from 10 to 11. You could take the Smarmy Charmer Paragon Path and get a different set of abilities or the Master Assassin PP and get additional SA bonuses. Or the Master Adventurer PP and go middle of the road. Or something like that. I curse you for making me indulge in idle speculation... curse you with cookies.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I think Irda Ranger was trying to say that a paragon path may change the nature of how rogue levels work, to the point that they enable a versatility of archetypes while allowing you to stick with straight rogue all the way to 30.

Right. I was offering my point as a counter to hong's point (that no one would stick with Rogue for 20 levels). It's my contention that (1) the 4E designers aren't going to make a Core class as iconic to D&D as the Thief/Rogue only good for a level dip or five, and (2) once we see the full class progression of powers and the Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies available we'll see how they have made the Rogue a playable class from levels 1 to 30.

 

[Stormtalon]

Also, there could be feat/power allowing the rogue to sneak attack at range. 3e includes one (I can't remember the name or source, and I don't have my books at work) that allows the rogue to ready an action and sneak attack an opponent struck in melee by an ally.

It's called Crossbow Sniper, and doubles the range at which you can get your Sneak Attack or Skirmish bonus damage. It's hellishly fun to use with a high-level Scout outdoors, as you can zoom around the battlefield, shoot someone and then hide in plain sight immediately after (yeah, -20 on the roll but that's not gonna hurt with the proper 3.x gear -- hello greater shadow armor! ).

 

[fafhrd]

Crossbow sniper is good, but I believe the feat referred to in this case is Deadeye shot from the same book.