Rogue Design and Trapfinding: What do you think of these design choices?

[Mojo_Rat]

I think the rogue really suffers from two issues. The misplaced perception that success at combat is the way define s character. And more notably a lot of the classes historical abilities are now skills anyone can be learned by anyone.

I think the second issue is a bigger one.

I like the class though have not had a chance to play one on pf yet.

That said our rogue just died (along with almost everyone else) but I had noticed him struggling when we caught orca and his hits just dropped them to staggered while my barbarian just killed them.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

This is just bizarre to me. In everything I've read and experienced, Pathfinder's rogue got a massive power-up.

(1) Sneak attack (almost) everything.
(2) Bigger hit die.
(3) Rogue talents.
(4) Consolidated skills list that massively and disproportionately benefits the rogue. (Compare the rogue's skill choices -- Perception, Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics, and so on -- to the fighter's -- the fighter still has to take Swim and Climb as separate skills!)

The idea that the rogue is weaker -- or even "as weak" -- in comparison to the other classes is so odd.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I guess it's sort of one of those things where it looks different on paper than in play? I didn't even think of skill issues until I played my rogue and realized someone else in the party was better than me at every single skill I had. And that was at level 1 where the +3 class skill bonus is making the most impact, and in some cases where the other players didn't have it as a class skill. I coud only imagine the problem growing with levels.

As far as bigger HD...Rogue badly needed it, and EVERY class below a d8 HD got a HD boost in PF, so that's far from a rogue-unique boost.

Consolidated skills: Here's the thing...a Fighter can just dip Rogue or Ranger 1 and gain a massive influx of +3 class skill boni, it's really not as amazing as it first seems in terms of class perks.

Rogue Talents are basically 2 bonus feats and then a bunch of other questionably useful stuff. Lots of classes gained feats in PF, and in general feat chains are longer and/or feats were slightly weakened from 3E.

And you're neglecting a lot of the nerfs rogue suffered in PF, which have been covered quite a bit already.

Rogue might not be weaker than in 3E (I think it might actually be weaker, but its debatable), but at best it kinda pulled even. After being an underpowered class in 3E and after other classes like Fighter, Sorcerer, and Paladin got very large boosts.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I played my rogue and realized someone else in the party was better than me at every single skill I had.

I really don't know what to tell you. If people in your party were non-rogues and better at Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Escape Artist ... I can only assume you're doing something wrong.

As far as bigger HD...Rogue badly needed it, and EVERY class below a d8 HD got a HD boost in PF, so that's far from a rogue-unique boost.

I didn't say it was a rogue-unique boost. I said it was a power-up for the rogue.

Consolidated skills: Here's the thing...a Fighter can just dip Rogue or Ranger 1 and gain a massive influx of +3 class skill boni

Sure, and see them quickly become useless as he can't maintain them at meaningful ranks. And he's losing his capstone ability, and gaining his other fighter abilities at a level behind.

Rogue Talents are basically 2 bonus feats and then a bunch of other questionably useful stuff.

We'll simply have to disagree there. The rogue talents are extremely useful, and some of them are quite powerful.

And you're neglecting a lot of the nerfs rogue suffered in PF, which have been covered quite a bit already.

I've not yet seen any way in which the rogue has been made absolutely or relatively weaker.

Rogue might not be weaker than in 3E (I think it might actually be weaker, but its debatable)

It's really, really not. The rogue is stronger than 3.5, both absolutely and relatively.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wood Elf archer Ranger: Better at stealth (and traded Elven Magic for the APG variant to move faster w/o penalty). That particular game had elves more like native Americans, thus used wood elf instead of standard elf. Later on if my rogue was still around, Druid would've been better in many instances just by the utility of turning into innocuous looking animals and hiding in plain sight.

Disable Device: I was best at it, but I sure wasn't the best at Perception to find 'em. That was the Druid and Ranger. Other classes also would've been better at trap spotting. The zen archer monk I replaced the rogue with was. (Which reminds me, she was also better at stealth than my former rogue, too).

Acrobatics: I was the best at it, but never once used it to tumble, because even w/ decent dex and max ranks, it had at least a 50% failure rate most of the time...no thank you. Only time I needed to move through threatened squares the 3 sessions I played, I used Total Defense action and didn't even bother trying tumble. Notably, although Fighter was worse at it, he eventually got to do it in full plate, which is something...

Sleight of Hand: *Shrug* I've never seen this skill as too useful, I guess YMMV. Stealing from players is a no-no, stealing from NPCs will get you smote by DM wrath sooner rather than later, and nonstealing applications are sparse.

Escape Artist: YMCannotPossiblyVary, this skill sucks. It takes a standard action instead of an attack action to break out of grapples with, and you can't even use it to avoid being grappled in the first place. Your efforts are much better spent on improving your CMD, and it's not like medium BAB is that far off from full BAB, so it's questionable how vital the skill even is. 1 rank for the +3 and to be able to take 20 and get out of bindings is plenty.

I wasn't doing anything wrong. We did have a big party, but still. Any skill of mine, someone could do it better, in some cases 2 or 3 could do it better.

As for relative/abolute weakness in 3E...at least in 3E at lower levels I could do nightmarish things with acid flasks at low levels and buy a ring of blinking for 24/7 sneak attack at higher levels; and when faced with the obscene amount of creatures immune to SA, fall back on magic items and my exclusive (along with the Bard) Use Magic Device skill. Out of core, other classes could easily shank that UMD exclusivity away, sure. But out of core, I also gain a million and 1 ways to bypass sneak attack immunities or generate sneak attacks in fun and exciting new ways. So meh.

 

[Volaran]

Escape Artist: YMCannotPossiblyVary, this skill sucks. It takes a standard action instead of an attack action to break out of grapples with, and you can't even use it to avoid being grappled in the first place. Your efforts are much better spent on improving your CMD, and it's not like medium BAB is that far off from full BAB, so it's questionable how vital the skill even is. 1 rank for the +3 and to be able to take 20 and get out of bindings is plenty.

Just a note, but according to the PRD, escaping a grapple is a standard action, whether or not it is via CMB or Escape Artist.

If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

Grappler: You can make an Escape Artist check in place of a combat maneuver check to escape a grapple (see Combat) or to change from a pinned condition to merely grappled.

Action: Making an Escape Artist check to escape from rope bindings, manacles, or other restraints (except a grappler) requires 1 minute of work. Escaping from a net or an animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle spell is a full-round action. Escaping from a grapple or pin is a standard action. Squeezing through a tight space takes at least 1 minute, maybe longer, depending on how long the space is.

Beyond that, Escape Artist also has wider ranging applications beyond escaping from a grapple. Things that cannot be duplicated with only use of your CMB.

I do have some thoughts regarding Celtavian's original post as well. That will come next when I have a bit more free time tonight

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ah right, forgot PF changed the grapple rules in that way, I was thinking of 3.5. It still doesn't help you avoid being grappled in the first place, I'd rather find ways to boost my CMD first.

 

[Volaran]

So, I should start out by saying that I have read the other threads in which Celtavian is making their case against Rogues.

I disagree with him on several points, but they have already been stated by others in those threads, and there is no point in trying to convince Celtavian that the existing rogue is a perfectly functional class.

I do acknowledge that with Celtavian's DMing style, and the preferences of his group (which seems highly combat focused and melee combat in particular), the rogue may seem lacking. So my thoughts here are specifically for rogue modifications for your group, rather than something I think is needed for the class in general.

Making some rogue-specific abilities into feats does seem like a valid way to have other characters in your group. Trapfinding is an excellent candidate for this, but you may just want to allow any character with Disable device to find and disable magical traps.

The rogue would still have 1/2 levels bonus to perception and disable device skills related to traps, as well as trap sense and the trap spotter rogue talent.

This is similar to the evolution of Tracking. In 3.5 it was a feat that used the survival skill, and rangers got for free as the 'Best Trackers'. Now it is a normal function of the survival skill, but rangers get a number of extra tracking benefits denied to other classes to give them the advantage.



Regarding beefing up the Rogue class, I would not suggest upping their Fort save. Thematically, they're still lightly armoured, mobile characters. Since your group is into melee offense, just flat out give the rogue full BAB and a d10 hit die.

In keeping with this, rather than the Assassin's accuracy, I would suggest something like the duelist's precise strike ability. If your group finds it difficult to position themselves for sneak attack, then change the conditions so that they are not position-dependent.

The Precise strike ability will offer less potential bonus damage than sneak attacks, but the rogue won't be dependent on the positioning of other characters, or use of Feinting to activate it.

A similar option could be provided for rogues focusing on ranged combat.

If you did make them a full BAB, it would probably make sense to scale back the skill points to 6/level or 4/level. They can still have a good range, but they'll be more about combat, and less about skill-based troubleshooting.

Aside: A friend of mine has allowed a rogue with a full BAB in his campaign before with positive results. In this case, it was a Pathfinder-updated War of the Burning Sky campaign. However, in this case, the group had only 3 players (a ranger, a rogue and an oracle) and were at substantial tactical disadvantage because of their small numbers. So, it was not a case of the player being lured to this rogue by this bonus.

This only represented a change to that rogue in particular, and did not affect NPCs. To address their lack of any arcane ability, the ranger was granted access to the sorcerer spell list with the bard's casting progression. I believe the oracle was modified in some way as well, but I do not recall the specifics.

(Okay, so I got around to this earlier than I thought)

 

[Volaran]

Ah right, forgot PF changed the grapple rules in that way, I was thinking of 3.5. It still doesn't help you avoid being grappled in the first place, I'd rather find ways to boost my CMD first.

No worries. I think we all still keep finding little changes like that.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Are all you of pro-rogue people playing in customized campaigns?

I'm running the Kingmaker Adventure path. Though they do incorporate some skill-based encounters, the module is still combat heavy. As in 90% of the xp gain comes from combat.

And even without a rogue, the players are having little trouble doing the social skill part.

The Half-elf ranger/Zen Archer monk has a +20 perception due to her focus on wisdom which the rogue can't do. And doesn't stealth much because the barbarian and fighter can kill most everything we come across straight up. This character is also superior at Sense Motive. We haven't needed Disable Device much at all. Not many magical traps in and outdoor exploration.

And as far as damage goes, I have one player playing a Two-hander Fighter and another playing an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with a Greatsword. They absolutely annihilate whatever they face and don't need to position to do it.

Then toss in the arcane caster Druid/Wizard tossing magic missiles and scorching rays as well as a buff or helpful tactical spell here and there.

And the oracle healing.

The rogue class isn't needed.

Thus the rogue is competing for playing time against the Zen Archer Monk/Ranger, which is a far more interesting class with less limitations on their abilities. So why would this player ever choose a rogue over another class combination that is much more interesting and powerful?

And this "oh your group is too combat focused" is bunk. The game is combat focused. It's built with a combat focus in mind. I doubt James Jacobs and the other game designers in any way, shape, or form would disagree.

If you are making heavy skilled based campaigns, then you are the one not playing D&D the most common way. Even the modules are designed with combat as the primary focus of the game by the makers of Pathfinder.

So the rogue should be on par as far as combat is concerned with every other class it competes with for playing time. That usually includes the monk, bard, inquisitor, and ranger. All classes with multiple good saves and a lot of very interesting abilities that aren't as dependent as the rogue on circumstance.

In the future, I would rather see them lower sneak attack damage and make the rogue's combat effectiveness less dependent on circumstance. The rogue should stand alone as an attractive class to play both from a combat and roleplaying perspective against every other class it competes again.
And at the moment the rogue is not competitive with those other classes. I doubt my group is the only one that thinks so.

I would love to see a survey done for groups playing either 3E or Pathfinder and see how many people are playing straight class rogues as a long-term character.

My players love the Fighter now and people rarely played a straight class fighter all the way to 20th. Loved the Ranger changes. Absolutely loved the paladin and barbarian changes. Loved the monk changes. Loved the sorcerer bloodlines. And even like the wizard changes.

Still no one feels the rogue is on par with the other classes. They read the class over, toy around with builds, and then move on to another class or multi-class their rogue a few levels for the trapfinding.

What games are you seriously playing in?

Do you guys not get to lvl 14 or so when you're getting hit with Aoe Holds, Destructions, charm and compulsion spells like fear and dominate, strange gaze attacks, and all types of strange special abilities from monsters that go off fort and will saves that destroy rogues? What game are you playing?

Wander around the city and make bluff checks past the local guards? Are you all doing campaigns where you break into places and steal the jewels?

And if so, what are the other characters doing why the rogue is doing all this skill-based stuff?

It sounds like you're making up stuff to make the rogue seem better than it is, while me and my players are playing modules designed by the game designers that made the rogue class in the first place and finding the rogue is non-competitive for playing time. We're not doing anything special. The encounters are being run as they were designed. About all you can say we're doing out of the norm is running five characters versus four. Which you would think would boost somebody taking a chance playing a rogue. But with two melee damage dealer slots in a five man group, nothing survives long enough for the rogue to set up sneak attack. So five players is a further detriment to a rogue.

Maybe in a straight four person group where the two melees aren't annihilating everything the rogue is more attractive because he has more time to set up. Or maybe all you "rogue is fine" guys are running heavy skill based campaigns you make up rather than Paizo designed modules. I don't know.

But it sure seems like most here don't have much experience with optimized melee builds or arcane casters and what they can do past level 10 or so. And seem to think the rogue can keep up when he can't, not even with an optimized talent build.