Rogue sneak attack and multiple hits

[hong]

Any attack where one is caught flat footed the sneak attack can be applied.
My gamers usualy make hand gestures on how they are attacking. If they are coming with a double cross stab. Yes both apply.

This could be good in conjunction with beer!

 

[Lamoni]

Sneak attacking does not rely on winning initiative... it can be accomplished at any time you want, if you make the prerequisites.

That is true. However, if you have access to multiple attacks then it is usually advantageous to take advantage of all of them and gain sneak attack damage on each one rather than only taking a single attack each round in order to provide the conditions for sneak attack on the next.

For example, if you can shoot 3 arrows with rapid shot in the first round, you would gain sneak attack damage on each one. OR you could shoot once and hide... and it would take 3 rounds to do the same damage you could have done in one... Still beneficial if you are by yourself and have to preserve your hide, but in our campaigns a good offense tends to be the best defense. The sooner they are dead, the fewer rounds they have to fight back.

I still haven't found a good opportunity where sniping would be beneficial. Maybe at the start of a campaign where you only get one attack, but usually your hide skill is also too low to reliably do so. That penalty is huge.

 

[mikebr99]

That is true. However, if you have access to multiple attacks then it is usually advantageous to take advantage of all of them and gain sneak attack damage on each one rather than only taking a single attack each round in order to provide the conditions for sneak attack on the next.

For example, if you can shoot 3 arrows with rapid shot in the first round, you would gain sneak attack damage on each one. OR you could shoot once and hide... and it would take 3 rounds to do the same damage you could have done in one... Still beneficial if you are by yourself and have to preserve your hide, but in our campaigns a good offense tends to be the best defense. The sooner they are dead, the fewer rounds they have to fight back.

I still haven't found a good opportunity where sniping would be beneficial. Maybe at the start of a campaign where you only get one attack, but usually your hide skill is also too low to reliably do so. That penalty is huge.

I find Sniping is more helpful at higher levels... when the -20 doesn't matter so much. And how often is a Rogue going to be hitting with those multiple attacks per round? YMMV

Mike

 

[Zaruthustran]

Well, there are two things to consider there.

First is the debate as to whether hiding denies an opponent his Dex bonus. It's not explicitly stated in the core rules. (Even less clear is whether a hiding attacker get the +2 bonus on attack rolls due to an invisible attacker.)

-Hyp.

Wow, I've never noticed the lack of explicit rules for hidden characters. I and everyone I've ever gamed with has treated hidden as = to invisible, in terms of combat modifiers and the status of the target's dex bonus. We just treated the word "invisible" as the more generic "unseen".

Hmm. Well, certainly the Dex bonus would be gone--the target can't see the attacker. I guess the +2 to attack could require the attacker to make a hide check while attacking (at a -20 penalty, per the rules) in order to remain unseen.

I guess future versions of D&D should list game modifiers for "hidden", or at least more explicitly equate hidden to invisible.

-z

 

[Archimedes314]

Except that Scorching Ray is a volley so only one of those rays gets sneak attack. You're better off using a Ray of Frost for touch attacks or just throwing daggers for multiple attacks.

It isn't a volley though, each ray requires its own attack roll.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It isn't a volley though, each ray requires its own attack roll.

Scorching Ray is the example spell used on p86 of Complete Arcane:

Multiple Hits
Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.

For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (two rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits, it deals 6d6+1 points of fire damage(4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not.

-Hyp.

 

[Ipissimus]

You can hide at any point during a typical combat, not just to gain suprise... and gain the extra SA damage if you make all the prerequisites.

Just hiding doesn't mean you meet the prerequsites for a sneak attack, however. Surprising an enemy does, as long as they're not aware of you they're flat footed.

After the surprise round, the enemy is aware that they're in a combat situation and, therefore, no longer flat footed when it comes to their turn. And you can't hide in the same round as making a full attack, so they'll see you (if you didn't win initiative and hid again... see below). I am aware that you can continue to hide if you only make one attack, that's a legitimate tactic, but in a party the fighters will want to get a piece of the action at the very least and 3-5 Sneak attacks every 2 rounds is better than one every round (extra attacks from BAB + duel wield tree).

Why run and hide... you are already behind cover/concealment, as you used it to gain suprise? you only get one surprise round during a combat with a group of "somethings" You only get one 1st round... during a combat with a group of "somethings"...

2 reasons to run and hide after full sneak attacking (though a good idea from a sniping standpoint anyway):-

- You have to be within 30ft. to make these Sneak Attacks. Anything with half a brain will be able to at least estimate where you're shooting from, and if you made a full attack they'll probably see you (again, see below). This would be a good cause for a DM to rule that the creatures are no longer flat footed (they're at least aware that you're there and will be trying not to get shot). They will then run in your direction to try and find you so they can add your ears to their necklace. You're within 30ft., so odds are they'll find you (even if you hide again in the same spot, cover won't count for anything if they walk around it. Remember, you're within 30ft, unless your targets are immobile, one of them will find you). Better to run away so that they don't know where you're shooting from next.

- The other reason is to contrive a way to initiate multiple combats with the same group of enemies. It's a standard, and very old, military tactic. Advance scout initiates combat, then runs. Enemy chases scout, right into the teeth of the ambush (literally getting surprised twice). Watch a whole ton of movies for this idea in action, including alot of Clint Eastwood westerns. Same deal, you Full Sneak Attack and get seen. You then run and hide, taking up your next position, bad guys chase you and you surprise them again. Sure, it depends on your DM's interpretation of the rules, but doesn't everything?

Sneak attacking does not rely on winning initiative... it can be accomplished at any time you want, if you make the prerequisites.

(this is the see below part)

You misunderstood what I meant here. As I said, "this tactic relies on you being alone and winning initiative", please note the 'this tactic' part of the statement. I wasn't claiming that you need to win initiative to make a sneak attack.

My point was that, after making a full attack in the surprise round, to hide you have to win initiative to hide again or the enemy will be all over you like white on rice, because they're going first, won't want to be shot again and you're in 30ft, in plain sight, so you'll be charged. Not a good place to be when you're a Rogue.