Rogues and Sneak Attacks

[Ridley's Cohort]

Your DM is clearly wrong based on the rules as written, Infection.

I will confess that when I first cracked open the 3.0 PHB I looked at the Rogue and thought "Wow! The Rogue could easily do more damage than the Fighter!!! We need to houserule this." And so we did.

After some actual play time, it became apparent that the houserule was completely unnecessary. By the time the Rogue actually has a dangerous number of iterative attacks, he is regular facing opponents that can potentially kill him outright with a full attack. Direct melee methods are suicidal in the long run.

So the Rogue needs to be more clever. Improved Invisibility and Blink are the obvious choices. Now the Rogue is investing in some serious resources in terms of money/magic, it is perfectly fair that he gets good use out of his primary class ability. To make it worse for the Rogue, at these level he is also going up against opponents who either cannot be Sneak Attacked at all, or have enough magic that they can temporary nullify his Sneak Attack ability -- the simplest method is just fight in a fog, Web, Sleet Storm, or apply any standard defensive concealment spell like Blur/Displacement.

So I completely understand why someone might be worried about multiple Sneak Attacks. It really and truly is not a problem or unbalanced to allow it.

 

[Jdvn1]

Some GMs don't use the breadth of the MM, though, so that can make Sneak Attack overly powerful. Not because it's an overly powerful ability but because the GM doesn't try to balance it out.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Hi. Welcome to the boards!

Yeah. For starters, multiple creature types grant complete immunity against sneak attack: Undead, construct, elemental, ooze, plant.

I think the proper order to mention them is Construct, Ooze, Undead, Plant, Elemental. Or COUPE.

I'm thinking this forum needs a stickied FAQ thread, with the "can rogues sneak attack more than once per round?" question right at the top.

I second that. And third. And fourth. In fact, I use up my daily allotment of incrementing for that!

Some GMs don't use the breadth of the MM, though, so that can make Sneak Attack overly powerful. Not because it's an overly powerful ability but because the GM doesn't try to balance it out.

Well, that's the DM's problem. He shouldn't shaft the rogues wholesale just because he can't deal with more than one sneak attack. That's robbing the rogue's player of all the fun. Beside using the occasional COUPE monster, you can use enemies who aren't the Paragon of Dumb.

I mean, of yes, hitting the enemy fighter with 3 sneak attacks with 5d6 damage each is nice for that 9th-level two-weapon wielding rogue. But the fighter will react. He'll think "damn, that guy just took away over half my HP. He backstabbed me repeatedly. He must be a rogue. I think I better give him all my attacks with a decent power attack next round, that ought to be enough for his d6 per level"

Hurting enemies big time while standing right beside them (which will be unavoidable unless you have improved invisibility) will probably convince them that you must be taken out first to minimize future damage.

 

[Jdvn1]

Well, that's the DM's problem. He shouldn't shaft the rogues wholesale just because he can't deal with more than one sneak attack. That's robbing the rogue's player of all the fun. Beside using the occasional COUPE monster, you can use enemies who aren't the Paragon of Dumb.

I mean, of yes, hitting the enemy fighter with 3 sneak attacks with 5d6 damage each is nice for that 9th-level two-weapon wielding rogue. But the fighter will react. He'll think "damn, that guy just took away over half my HP. He backstabbed me repeatedly. He must be a rogue. I think I better give him all my attacks with a decent power attack next round, that ought to be enough for his d6 per level"

Hurting enemies big time while standing right beside them (which will be unavoidable unless you have improved invisibility) will probably convince them that you must be taken out first to minimize future damage.

Well, I'm not saying it's the Rogue's fault and he should be shafted, but the GM has an obligation, I think, to game balance. Should he change the flavor of his world because one of his characters decides to play the Rogue class? Some GMs like to run nothing but humainoids as NPCs.

If I considered it a problem, I'd at least come up with a feat to protect, at least partially, against sneak attacks.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well, I'm not saying it's the Rogue's fault and he should be shafted, but the GM has an obligation, I think, to game balance. Should he change the flavor of his world because one of his characters decides to play the Rogue class? Some GMs like to run nothing but humainoids as NPCs.

Did you read what I wrote, there? I wrote that even with a human-only campaign, there is no need to shaft sneak attack in any way. Just play it logically. If you hit that guy repeatedly for copious amounts of damage, he will make you the primary target for his attacks (and may very well use really devastating stuff, especially when he sees that you're only wearing a light armor and no shield). And even if he doesn't (because he's dead), his allies will witness it and act accordingly.

A rogue can down foes quickly, but he falls quickly, too.

 

[Jdvn1]

Well, especially at mid levels and at the start of combats, I think a Rogue's 4d6+Str damage (5th level, with a shortsword) is much more of a threat in combat, one-on-one against a Fighter. Even if the Fighter focused on the Rogue, I think the Rogue could take him down than the Fighter could react.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=18

Especially if he wins initiative, which the Rogue is likely to do. (Average at least 30 damage in Surprise and 1st round probably leaves the fighter with about 10 hp.)

Against a group of people, the Rogue might be weaker, but I think a party of Rogues comes out on top over a party of Fighters.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well, especially at mid levels and at the start of combats, I think a Rogue's 4d6+Str damage (5th level, with a shortsword) is much more of a threat in combat, one-on-one against a Fighter. Even if the Fighter focused on the Rogue, I think the Rogue could take him down than the Fighter could react.

Especially if he wins initiative, which the Rogue is likely to do. (Average at least 30 damage in Surprise and 1st round probably leaves the fighter with about 10 hp.)

For that, he has to hit, which isn't guaranteed. A rogue doesn't have the best of attack bonuses (especially if he's using two weapons), and your typical fighter does have a decent AC, most of it from armor (and maybe shield), so it won't go away when he's flat-footed. The rogue, on the other hand, has a lower AC, so that fighter will be able to power attack and still have a nice chance to hit that rogue.

And after that first round, you cannot rely upon sneak attack any more (unless you are flanking, and if you are, that fighter has a problem, anyway) so it's even harder for you to hit.

Now, that rogue 5 has an average of 26 hp (with con 13). The fighter (assuming he uses sword and shield) will deal 10 points of damage on average (5 +1 longsword, +3 strength +2 specialization). This assumes that there is no power attack involved. This fight is anything but a clear win for the rogue, as the fighter is much more likely to hit (better attack bonus, better AC). And I haven't included power attack yet. Now, if he uses greatsword instead (making it somewhat easier to hit), he can deal out 14 points on average (8 +1 greatsword, +4 strength, +2 specialization), and power attack is going to hurt even more.

 

[Jdvn1]

For that, he has to hit, which isn't guaranteed. A rogue doesn't have the best of attack bonuses (especially if he's using two weapons), and your typical fighter does have a decent AC, most of it from armor (and maybe shield), so it won't go away when he's flat-footed. The rogue, on the other hand, has a lower AC, so that fighter will be able to power attack and still have a nice chance to hit that rogue.

Rogues, if I'm not mistaken, are only 2 BAB behind Fighters at 5th level. Not that far off. And if he's attack with two hands, he better have TWF, and probably Weapon Finesse. He has a good chance to hit on all of his attacks, making average damage closer to 40 than 30. Doesn't look good for the Fighter. Sure, let the Fighter have his one attack. He'll be down next round.

And after that first round, you cannot rely upon sneak attack any more (unless you are flanking, and if you are, that fighter has a problem, anyway) so it's even harder for you to hit.

If the Fighter's decent AC didn't go away when he was flat-footed, I don't see why it'd come back when he wasn't. I think you're a little inconsistent here.

Now, that rogue 5 has an average of 26 hp (with con 13). The fighter (assuming he uses sword and shield) will deal 10 points of damage on average (5 +1 longsword, +3 strength +2 specialization). This assumes that there is no power attack involved. This fight is anything but a clear win for the rogue, as the fighter is much more likely to hit (better attack bonus, better AC). And I haven't included power attack yet. Now, if he uses greatsword instead (making it somewhat easier to hit), he can deal out 14 points on average (8 +1 greatsword, +4 strength, +2 specialization), and power attack is going to hurt even more.

... Wait, you assumed a sword and a shield and then changed it to a greatsword. You're going to have to sacrifice either damage or AC. I already discussed that Rogue's attack bonus isn't that weak. And if we're using magic items, that might take the Fighter down in the 1st round and not give him a chance to hit at all. And even if he power attacks and deals 14 points of damage, he won't last the next round.

 

[Hammerhead]

How is the Rogue Sneak Attacking the Fighter round after round?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Rogues, if I'm not mistaken, are only 2 BAB behind Fighters at 5th level. Not that far off. And if he's attack with two hands, he better have TWF, and probably Weapon Finesse. He has a good chance to hit on all of his attacks, making average damage closer to 40 than 30. Doesn't look good for the Fighter. Sure, let the Fighter have his one attack. He'll be down next round.

He's behind two points. Plus the fighter has weapon focus. Plus the fighter has the better AC. And if the rogue uses two weapons, that's another -2.

If the Fighter's decent AC didn't go away when he was flat-footed, I don't see why it'd come back when he wasn't. I think you're a little inconsistent here.

The difference is small, but there.

... Wait, you assumed a sword and a shield and then changed it to a greatsword. You're going to have to sacrifice either damage or AC.

Both are good to begin with. You can make one of them even better.

Let's just conjure up some characters here. Standard money, standard array, human characters. That's 9000 gp (max 4500 per item) and 15/14/13/12/10/8 for ability scores +1 for level 4

Fighter Build 1 (Sword & Board)
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Feats: Exotic Weapon (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (BS), Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword), Iron Will.
Items: Bastard Sword +1 (2335) Full Plate +1 (2650), Heavy Shield +1 (1170) Ring of Prot +1 (2000), misc other stuff.
HP: 5d10+10 (42)
AC: 24 (+9 full plate +1, +3 heavy shield +1, +1 dex, +1 ring of protection +1) touch 12, flat-footed 23
Attack: Bastard Sword + 10 melee (1d10+6, average 11.5); can be as much as +5 (16.5)

Fighter Build 2 (Heavy weapon)
As above, except:
Feats: Instead of Exotic Weapon, Improved Sunder, Focus and so on on Greatsword
Items: Greatsword +1 (2350) Full Plate +1 (2650), Ring of Prot +1 (2000), Cloak of Res +1 (1000), misc
AC 21 (+9 full plate), +1 dex, +1 ring of prot +1), touch 12, ff 20
Attack Greatsword + 10 melee (2d6+7, average 14); can be as much as +5 (24)

Rogue Build 1 (one weapon)
Str 12 Dex 16, Con 14 Int 13, Wis 10 Cha 8
Feats: Improved Initiative, Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Items: +1 rapier (2320), +1 mithral shirt (2150), ring of prot +1 (2000), buckler +1 (1165), cloak of res +1 (1000), misc stuff.
HP 5d6+10 (30)
AC 22 (+5 mithral shirt +1, +2 buckler +1, +1 ring of prot, +3 dex, +1 dodge)
Attack Rapier + 7 (1d6+2/ 1d6+2+3d6; average 5.5/16)

Rogue 2 (two-weapon)
As above, except
Feats: TWF instead of dodge
Items: +1 short sword x 2 (4620), +1 mithral shirt (2150), ring of prot +1 (2000)
AC 19 (+5 mithral shirt, +1 ring, +3 dex)
Attack: Short Sword +5 (1d6+2/1d6+2+3d6; 5.5/16) and Short Sword +5 (1d6+1/1d6+1+3d6; 4.5/15; but let's just say he deals 5.5/16 with that one, too)

(Note that these rogues are combat-oriented, I wouldn't play it, I'd give him higher charisma, no buckler, and so on)

Now, with Improved Ini it is almost guaranteed that the rogue will start, and he might get a surprise round as well (though he would probably have to use that to move up to the fighter, we just assume that the rogue gets his surprise round and starts right next to the fighter, weapons drawn)

Rogue 1 vs Fighter 1: The rogue has a 25% chance to hit the fighter in the surprise round and in round 1, with 15% chance for a crit (which again has 25% chance to hit). So he has a 50% chance to hit once in the first round. This is a 50 percant chance for a little more than 16 damage (due to the unlikely crit), so the fighter's down to 26 or still has his 42. (34 on average)
Then, it's the fighter's turn. He has a 45% hit chance, dealing 11,5 damage on a hit, and with the chance of a crit, the average damage is 5,5, taking the rogue down to 24,5. Now, the rogue only has 20% chance to hit, and hits only deal 5,5, so his statistical average damage is not even 1.5 points. (the figher's average Damage will decrease with power attack)

So the rogue has to hit with both his sneak attacks (which is unlikely) to have a chance.

Rogue 2 vs Fighter 1: 3 possible sneak attacks (only one in surprise round). He will need an 18 to hit. That means he doesn't even have 50% chance to hit with either, so the average damage he does is less than 3 per attack, or 9 before the fighter gets to act.
Said fighter only needs a 9 to hit, and therefore deals a statistical average of 7.5 per hit. So when the fighter starts swinging, he's down to 31 to the rogue's 30, and will have him in 4 rounds. The rogue, now without his SA and with even worse chances to hit, will deal 3.5 points of damage on average. Sure victory for the fighter. Again, power attack won't help the fighter.

Rogue 1 vs Figther 2: Needs 13 to hit with his first two attacks (the SA's), that's 40 %, or statistical average of less than 7 per hit. So fighter's now down to 28. He's got the same chance to hit (12+), but with more damage, so the statistical average damage is almost 7. The rogue will now only have 35% to hit, and no sneak attack, which makes an average of not even 2.5 per hit. Fighter wins probably. A low power attack value will increase the damage, but only a bit.

Rogue 2, Fighter 2: Rogue's first 3 attacks hit on 15 or better, average 5 per hit, 15 in the first 2 rounds. Fighter's now on 27. That's 9 per hit on average. Rogue now only hits with 16 or better, and then only 5.5, average damage 1.5 per hit or 3 per round. Fighter wins again.
With power attack, the average damage of Fighter can to up to 10 per round