Rogues and Sneak Attacks

[Kae'Yoss]

How is the Rogue Sneak Attacking the Fighter round after round?

He isn't. I've done the numbers in my previous post. Reasonable fighter build against reasonable rogue build (actually, that's a warrior rogue).

Even if he could sneak up on that fighter, and get a surprise round with weapons drawn, he'll go down. That fighter is hard to hit, but hits easily. and he hits almost as good without SA as the rogue does with. Without his precious SA (which he cannot maintain beyond round one, unless he has an ally, but then, the fighter would have one, too) the rogue is absolutely lost.

And I didn't introduce some of the nicer fighter concepts, like grapple, disarm, trip, or using spiked chain. I'm currently playing a fighter 5 in a campaign (though there we have more points to spend on ability scores, but less money, than standard), and he has spiked chain, combat expertise, improved disarm, improved trip, power attack and combat reflexes. +1 full plate and masterwork spiked chain. People around me tend to lose their weapon, their footing, or both. (I plan to get either weapon focus and weapon specialization next, or some EN Arsenal - Spiked Chain goodness)

 

[Jdvn1]

Yikes, that's way too many numbers for me (and I know you're being generous with them because two attacks with 25% to hit doesn't make 50% to hit, that's bad statistics), but I do know that if the Rogue does 1d6 damage with his short sword, he's better of Feinting (since it's a class skill and Sense Motive isn't a class skill for Fighters) and doing 4d6+whatever every other round. Which means Combat Expertise -> Imp. Feint might be a better option instead of Imp Init and Dodge (since I am already more likely to win Initiative). Again, making a combat oriented Rogue instead of an actual Rogue, but some people play them that way.

 

[hippiejedi2]

Fellow Inv Blds a Must Read

I play a 13/5/4 rg/inv bld/fghtr. He is certainly a worthy opponent, he is one of the more powerful fighter types in the group. He would not do well as the primary fighter though.

The purpose of the IB class, as i see it, is that it makes use of weapon that otherwise would get little use, the dagger. In my opinion, the pupose of prestige classes is to entice characters to try things that would not normally get used, so IB is a paradigm of the preceding prerequisite. The downside to feinting in combat is the one attacked gets SENSE MOTIVE + BAB and as i have found from experience many monsters have SM as a class skill. I can get multiple attacks per round, but thta does not mean I always do. If your DM is creative they will find a way. There is always a way.

He does have TWF, improved TWF, Flick of the Wrist a must for rgs (complete warrior?), and weapon finesse. his overall attack is less than a fighters, but still respectable. There is errata for the IB class, i forget where.

 

[Infection]

Wow, that was some really good feedback guys. Thanks for all your help, I think the next time I see my DM I'm going to show him this thread and see if I can convince him to change the ruling. Hopefully I'll be able to get all my sneak attacks.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Well, especially at mid levels and at the start of combats, I think a Rogue's 4d6+Str damage (5th level, with a shortsword) is much more of a threat in combat, one-on-one against a Fighter. Even if the Fighter focused on the Rogue, I think the Rogue could take him down than the Fighter could react.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=18

Especially if he wins initiative, which the Rogue is likely to do. (Average at least 30 damage in Surprise and 1st round probably leaves the fighter with about 10 hp.)

Against a group of people, the Rogue might be weaker, but I think a party of Rogues comes out on top over a party of Fighters.

Potentially, yes. But when you start crunching the number it does not work out to be all that great.

A number of things can go wrong with your plan:
--Rogue is Spotted: ~5%
--Rogue is heard (Listen): ~5%
--Rogue misses surprise round attack: ~50%
--Rogue loses initiative in round 1, even though he has Improved Initiative: ~10%-15%
--Rogue misses his attack in round 1: ~50%

Convolute all those probabilities together and the Rogue has ~80% of failing to pull off the ambush. Even the less than likely success does not guarantee him victory.

 

[Staffan]

Yikes, that's way too many numbers for me (and I know you're being generous with them because two attacks with 25% to hit doesn't make 50% to hit, that's bad statistics),

No, but it does make 0.5 attacks that will hit each round on average. There's an 18.75% chance that only attack 1 hits, an 18.75% chance that only attack 2 hits, and a 6.25% chance that both attacks hit. This works out to an average of 0.1825*1 + 0.1825*1 + 0.0625*2 = 0.5 attacks per round.

You're thinking about the probability that at least one attack connects, which is different because it doesn't count "both hit" as two instances, but when you're calculating average damage you do.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

but I do know that if the Rogue does 1d6 damage with his short sword, he's better of Feinting (since it's a class skill and Sense Motive isn't a class skill for Fighters) and doing 4d6+whatever every other round.

It may not be class skill for the fighter, but he does get his BAB as a bonus to the roll. So that fighter 5 will probably have a bonus of +9 (4 ranks +5 BAB) to resist the feint. The rogue will only have +7 to his roll (8 ranks -1 cha). If you want to have a better cha score, you'll need to sacrifice either strength or con, which decreases your HP or your damage. Having combat expertise, improved feint and weapon finesse will also decrease your initiative modifier significantly, and going twice before the fighter acts will not be so sure any more.

Also, the fighter can just hit you and then go away, so you have to follow him, which means you won't get your feint every round. And that feint is still less likely to hit the fighter than the fighter is to hit you.
The loss of dodge will increase the fighter's chance to hit you even further

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I find that movement significantly reduces the number of sneak attacks a rogue gets. Since combat doesn't usually open with opponents toe-to-toe, the rogue usually spends some time closing with his opponent to get off the initial sneak attack while the opponent is flat-footed -- meaning that flat-footed sneak attack is usually only a single attack.

The rogue/ranger IMC can potentially pull off five (soon to be six) sneak attacks in a round, but he's never done it. The only time he's been in position to do it has involved flanking, and IIRC the most of those attacks he's ever landed is three. And while he's taken down a number of critters that were already wounded with those attacks, he's also been taken down by the Power Attacking riposte of his opponent.

The party recently fought a Gimlock Barbarian. Uncanny dodge + blindsight = no fun for the rogue.