Role/Roll Playing

[Theo R Cwithin]

This is ANOTHER problem, not so irrelevant to what i said, but another problem nonetheless.

No, it's the same problem: two sides of the same coin. When a player plays in a way that maximizes his own fun at the expense of others at the table, that's a social issue, a problem between the group and the player-- not an illusory 'role v roll' problem.

/threadjack
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[xigbar]

Not that you all seem to need any convincing doing so, but I'd like to extend this thread to a discussion on how you deal with optimizers. I once had a dungeon where two power gamers, and the other three casual players, were separated by an adamantine wall, and had to find where they could meet back up. Even with less mechanical experience, the trio could employ more teamwork, and the duo struggled, despite their higher self-sufficiency. It wasn't intentional, but it was interesting to observe. Also, I would like to add that I optimize so that the character will survive long enough TO be roleplayed. So I am likewise neutral on the issue, but voted rollplaying. (By coin flip.)

 

[Water Bob]

Back in 1E and 2E AD&D, by RAW, it was definitely possible to get a 1st level character with only 1 Hit Point.

I played in a game, almost two years ago now, where a player rolled up a female elf fighter in a 2E AD&D game, had no CON bonus, and rolled a 1 on the d10 for hit points.

He played that character all the way through the level and kept her alive by keeping her out of the melees. She became a pretty doggone good bowman, her and her 1 HP.

Then, 2nd level finally came around. We all held our breath as the player threw the d10 Hit Die for the second level. He got a "2".

So, now, at 2nd level, the character had a grand total of 3 HP.

Bow specialist she became.

And, to everyone's amazement (and even after surviving a particularly nasty encounter with trolls where--no lie--the troll missed twice and did only 2 points of damage the third attack), she survived to 3rd level, where she finally rolled 9 hp, for a total of 12.





If you really want to see who is a "roleplayer" and who is a "roll player", have people honestly answer if they'd play in a game where their character had only 1 hp at 1st level.

That seperates the men from the boys.

Those who honestly tell you that they wouldn't play a character with only 1 HP are not true roleplayers. They lean more towards roll playing, often citing that they can't have "fun" playing a character with only 1 HP.

 

[Pergentile]

If a person makes their character to dominate the game, they are a person I will not have in my campaigns, or will play with. Its a group game, not a "everyone shows up and watches you play" game.

 

[Dandu]

Those who honestly tell you that they wouldn't play a character with only 1 HP are not true roleplayers. They lean more towards roll playing, often citing that they can't have "fun" playing a character with only 1 HP.

Know any Scotsmen?

 

[Jimlock]

No, it's the same problem: two sides of the same coin. When a player plays in a way that maximizes his own fun at the expense of others at the table, that's a social issue, a problem between the group and the player-- not an illusory 'role v roll' problem.

/threadjack
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I'll explain why IMO it is a different problem.

Optimizers are not necessarily "dickish" players. The are easily ppl who, for one reason or another, have learned to play the game a certain way.
Many of the optimizers have never actually played in a ROLE-playing game.
Many see the game as an inside competition, with the sole purpose being to prove who is best. Actually, this kind of reminds me, how as a kid i used to fight with other kids on who's the strongest... Arnold... or Stalone..?
The've learned to play as Player vs Player and Players vs DM...
So when they find themselves among role-players, they play like they are used to, and that means they try to be the best. They see it as nothing more as a game of cards, or as monopoly if you may...

Now players like the one you described (the dickish rogue who steals from the party), are not necessarily players who do not know how to roleplay. These are players who cannot put aside their ego no matter what. In some cases they are even good roleplayers! Not that this very fact makes them any less dickish, but at least their do not necessarily derive from a certain "cult" that plays the game a certain way. Those are dickish players plain and simple.

So when i am addressing the problem of optimizers. I am kind of talking about a whole new breed of players here.
Is it the fault of Books? ...the plethora of rules? ...the direction the game has taken by the industry itself? ...MMORPGs? perhaps some or all combined together...
Not that players of the like did not exist with previous editions.. sure. But i have a feeling their numbers are much bigger than they used to nowadays...

 

[Dandu]

I am considered an optimizer among my friends, but the roleplayers in my previous groups never seemed to have any problem with it.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I've not yet voted and I'm not sure how I could. I feel like "Rolling" up a powerful character is part of playing the "Role" of the characters I like to play, and my friends enjoy playing alongside.

I'm a fan of optimizing. I wouldn't spend as much time learning from and picking the brains of you fine people otherwise. Each character I build seems to become more effective than the last. I like knowing that I can do whatever needs to be done to succeed. However, I like to play those characters as helpers, supporters, "power under control" individuals. Because I could solo the encounter doesn't mean I choose to.

I am currently playing a Psion Telepath in a game. He's not the party leader and he's not the party face, even though he could be. He's the quiet guy who occasionally makes a suggestion if no one else has any good ones.

The guy has reality-bending, enemy neutralizing abilities at level 6 with Time Hop, Crisis of Breath, Brain Lock, False Sensory Input and Hostile Emathic Transfer. However, out of respect for my fellow players, he spends most of his time shooting Crystal Shards, summoning an Astral Construct (expanded knowledge), providing party support with Mindlink, Read Thoughts, and Tongues. He could outshine the other players, I just choose not to play him that way. However, in those "Oh Crap, We're gunna die!" moments, he steps in, Time Hops one BBEG, than Brain Locks the other so the party can survive.

In those moments the other players are greatful, not resentful. Without building such characters, we'd all end up rerolling new ones much more often that we currently do.

 

[Jimlock]

I am considered an optimizer among my friends, but the roleplayers in my previous groups never seemed to have any problem with it.

Every case is different and not all optimizers cause problems to roleplayers.

IMHO what i said above happens more often than not, but not always. Sure there are cases where optimizers "don't give their best shot" so as not to disturb the balance of the game, or cases where roleplayers are not annoyed by having optimizers in the game.

Anyway, this is what I've witnessed happening, being involved with D&D and some other RPGames since the mid to late 90s...
I don't want to pretend being a D&D guru here... i'm just stating what me and other players experience, being involved with D&D enough time so as to be able to see/witness changes throughout the years.

 

[El Mahdi]

I initially build my character around roleplaying, but I don't necessarily ignore roll-playing. I build my character from an organic standpoint of what has my character done in his life previous to this, and as a result, what does he know. Though obviously, if he's been successful and survived to the point of being a hero now, he's got some optimized skills - so I do factor that in.

Predominantly character/story origin for character creation, with an eye toward mechanical optimization that complements that story.