Room Sizes...

Celebrim said:
For D&D purposes, Mike's idea differs from mine mainly for non-normal speeds. I'm courious to see how it would play out differently. Suppose every player in the party had a speed of 4. Taking mike's idea literally, a slow party would rarely be challenged by being slow because the rooms would shrink to fit. Likewise, a fast monster would always be able to benefit from its speed, and a slow monster would never be punished by the players speed - unless the DM made a conscious decision to allow it. So is the optimal situation one where speed doesn't matter much?

On the other hand, is it really optimal to take a fast monster and put it in a space where it can't use that speed? Or to put a slow monster is a space so large that it dies before it reaches the PCs?

I consider optimal to mean the amount of space needed for everybody to get the most out of their mobility. I don't mean for this to be used in every encounter, just your everyday average encounter. You may want more or less space due to some tactical reasons. For example, if you want to play up missile fire or long range spell casting in an encounter you'll have to make the encounter area much larger. Or if you want to annoy the cleric that is always enlarged, put in a lot of 5' corridors so he has to squeeze thru. ;)
 

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FitzTheRuke said:
I think I like this. It's not like you can't fit an awful lot of people in a 5'x5' square. Of course, when they're swinging swords it's another matter, but if you assume that they are used to fighting together, they would stay shoulder-to-shoulder or back-to-back, and still fit one each into a square yard (or metre).

This way too you can either make your standard 10' hallway 3 squares wide, or make your standard 2 square hallway 6 feet wide. (Which is still pretty wide for a hallway, if you think about it.)

GURP's uses a 3' per hex scale that makes a lot of sense. But in D&D, you will have to rethink what weapons get reach. At 3' per square, a greatsword would be a reach weapon.
 

Purely going by the high level spells we've been privvy to so far, the maximum room dimension would be 20 squares. I'd be interested to see how the ranges of lower level iconic spells like Fireball (normally with an outrageous range in previous editions) match up. For dungeon crawls the ranges are fair and balanced I'm sure, but outdoors (I have no idea but have bow ranges been chopped to fit 'encounter areas'?), well I have a feeling the days of spell sniping is over. For what it's worth. *shrug*
 

Revinor said:
I I would certain have an issue visualizing 4 guys with 2-handed swords fighting without issues in 6'x'6 room. 10'x10' is still small for them, but at least slightly better.
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4 guys with greatswords in a 6'x6' or 10'x10' room would have issues indeed, that's a good thing. Some weapons are better for some conditions and places. Greatswords weren't designed for tight spaces they were designed for open fields.
 

I would much rather design places based on what their in-game actual use is than some sort of general combat optimization. Plus, I like when characters are forced to think creatively to get around the circumstances of the combat environment, whether it be climbing, jumping, bullrushing, grappling and moving your foe, easily blocking off egress with spells, furniture or bodies, etc. . . Oh, and despite "the rules", I will let two (or more) characters be in the same space (with penalties).

I would think that with 4E's emphasis on moving and moving opponents around that narrow confines would be even less of problem. . . Cramped up in a small room with one narrow way out? Push your way out into some place with more elbow room, use your powers to help define the combat space - take advantage of the idea that "encounter areas" are going to be over several rooms now, etc. . .
 

mhensley said:
GURP's uses a 3' per hex scale that makes a lot of sense. But in D&D, you will have to rethink what weapons get reach. At 3' per square, a greatsword would be a reach weapon.


5' squares are a bit too big if folks actually want to actually consider weapon lengths. With a sword i can lunge and stab something 7'-8' away without moving my feet. If i pivot my rear foot forward of my forward foot in a stance, I can stab someone 10-11' away.

D&D is far and away nowhere near as tactically precise a game as some critics claim.
 

Mortellan said:
Purely going by the high level spells we've been privvy to so far, the maximum room dimension would be 20 squares. I'd be interested to see how the ranges of lower level iconic spells like Fireball (normally with an outrageous range in previous editions) match up. For dungeon crawls the ranges are fair and balanced I'm sure, but outdoors (I have no idea but have bow ranges been chopped to fit 'encounter areas'?), well I have a feeling the days of spell sniping is over. For what it's worth. *shrug*
Modest chop. 20 squares without penalty, but teh MAX range is only 40 squares.
 

Celebrim said:
For D&D purposes, Mike's idea differs from mine mainly for non-normal speeds. I'm courious to see how it would play out differently. Suppose every player in the party had a speed of 4. Taking mike's idea literally, a slow party would rarely be challenged by being slow because the rooms would shrink to fit. Likewise, a fast monster would always be able to benefit from its speed, and a slow monster would never be punished by the players speed - unless the DM made a conscious decision to allow it. So is the optimal situation one where speed doesn't matter much?

On the other hand, is it really optimal to take a fast monster and put it in a space where it can't use that speed? Or to put a slow monster is a space so large that it dies before it reaches the PCs?

I usually design my site-based adventures in a certain order: 1) Concept, 2) Encounters, 3) Map, 4) Flavor text (what some of my more hack-and-slashish players derisively call "story time"). Thus, when I get to mapping, I've got an idea of how the PCs' opponents are going to run, what their capabilities are, and how to maximize them. Usually--not always, but usually--the PCs find their foes in areas in which the foes are comfortable and capable of defending themselves well. Which is a roundabout way of saying that I almost always shape the room to give the baddies a moderate advantage, which the PCs must overcome if they don't want to needlessly waste resources. For the really cinematic fights, the ones I decide ahead of time I want the players to remember, I make sure there are at least two big tactical decisions available in the encounter area, and based on their positioning and use of the environment, the PCs can negate their foes' advantages or even gain a fairly impressive advantage themselves.

And then, when I've spent half an hour designing a room, my players are crafty enough to find a way to utterly bypass my brilliant scheme. :p

Example: The PCs enter a two-tiered room, with a wooden platform wrapping around three-fourths of the room. Hiding behind sandbags, up on the wooden platform, are a bunch of drow armed with crossbows. The room is 60 feet square and pitch dark, to play up the range of the crossbows and the dark elves' darkvision. About half of them have applied poison to their bolts. BUT! The PCs might have found a secret door in a previous room, which was the way to drow got onto the platform in the first place, and that would negate much of their advantage. Or the barbarian could smash down the wooden supports that hold up the platform. Or both! Or more likely, they'll come up with something even more brilliant--as I recall, they entered that adventure area through a skylight using spiderclimb and invisibility to begin with.

I expect my method of designing encounter areas won't change all that much with 4th edition, because it's pretty well dependent on what the enemies are capable of. If monsters in 4th edition are best served by huge, cavernous rooms, then huge cavernous rooms there shall be. I'm betting, though that monster tactics will dictate a variety of room compositions and sizes, just as in 3.5. I just hope it will require less system mastery on my part to make these kinds of encounters, because it took my months to get to that point in 3.5.
 
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mhensley said:
I consider optimal to mean the amount of space needed for everybody to get the most out of their mobility.

But then the amount of space you've calculated is too small. To meet this goal, the amount of space you would need is

(<Space of PC's> * 2 * <PC speed +1>) + (<Space of NPC's> * 2 * <NPC speed + 1>)

To really be able to move around and get the most out of your ability you need to be able to have the choice to move freely in more than one direction. Otherwise, its too easy box something into a corner, or cut off the option to move away by simply taking the center of the room. To really run and gun, the devils would need to start in a room size of about 344 squares (56 + 288), or about 18x19. Much smaller than that, and its impossible to get out of charge range of everyone in the room if the character is trying to use its mobility to its advantage and create a local concentration of force.
 

Celebrim said:
But then the amount of space you've calculated is too small. To meet this goal, the amount of space you would need is

(<Space of PC's> * 2 * <PC speed +1>) + (<Space of NPC's> * 2 * <NPC speed + 1>)


I think your formula is a bit wonky. Unless the characters are only moving in one dimension.

Personally, I think a good formula would be something like:

(Highest speed of all figures on map)^2 + (sum of all speeds) + (sum of all spaces).

That should scale pretty well for any size combat, I think. Interestingly though, if you take a look at Mike's law example, it comes up with a very close room size. (His was 13x14, mine is 12x13). It'd be a good idea to applyl percentage modifyers for 'cramped' or 'open' combats.
 

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