Rope of Entanglement Question

[Killer Shrike]

In the Rope of Entanglement description in the DMG, the Rope is stated to be Large and to have Strength of 22. Based on the fact that it makes a grapple check to entangle a victim, I recently adjudicated that if it successfully grappled an opponent it inflicts 1d4 + 6 points of unarmed damage based on the letter of the Grappling rules in the PHB. Since the items description does not indicate that it constricts the opponent I also adjudicated that it only causes this damage when first entangling an opponent, not on subsequent rounds once the target is entangled.

This immediately touched off a massive and unexpected argument.

There are several sides of the argument, and I can see pros & cons in all of them.

posit 1: The rope shouldnt inflict damage because the description of the item doesnt specifically say it does. P: Simplifies the whole mess by treating the magic item description as a self contained encapsulated mechanic. C: The item does rely on the Grapple rules, and successful Grapple initiation inflicts unarmed damage. Unarmed damage is based on Strength and Size, both of which traits are defined for a Rope of Entanglement, though indirectly.

posit 2: Ropes are not weapons and are not designed/intended to do damage. The do not inflict unarmed damage because they are not capable of being armed or unarmed. P: Simplifies the problem by establishing the unarmed damage of the rope as 0; thus even if the Grapple rules are invoked by the item, the damage inflicted is set to nil. C: Ropes can cause damage and can be used as a weapon. Both the hangman's noose and the lasso stand testament to the idea that rope can be used offensively. Further, the Rope of Entanglement is animated; it might be an inanimate object normally, but the magic invested in it gives it motive force with prodigious strength. Unarmed damage is based on Strength and Size (see above), and regardless of the items material composition it has values for both traits.

posit 3: The Rope of Entanglement is a hold over concept from the previous edition, contrived to comply with the new rules system. Though on the surface it might appear that the RoE might cause damage when initiating its Entanglement effect thru the convenience of using the existing Grapple rules, such was not in the spirit of the item and therefore should be Rule-0'd as not causing damage. P: Irons out a potential system conversion artifact by 'common sensing' it out of play. C: Do too much of this and you might as well still be playing the old edition. Many aspects of the rules have similar 'same-name, different-mechanic' issues. In the interests of moving forward, it is better to disregard what once was true and take new versions at face value rather than trying to maintain the flavor of the older edition just becuase it is more familiar.

posit 4: The RoE is stated to be Large and to have a Str of 22. It has a +15 to Grapple checks. If the +4 Size bonus and +6 Str bonus are subtracted from this +15, the RoE has an unspecified
base +5 bonus to its Grapple checks. If the Rope is not intended to cause damage, the why not just give it a +15 bonus and not refer to both its Strength and Size? Size is useful to know for purposes of what can and cannot be grappled, but the size range of the target creature could easily be given in the items description. Other than adding to a Grapple check the only other thing either strength is used for is to calculate damage inflicted. Since both pieces of information are provided, it is only logical that they would drop nicely into the existing Grapple rules, which clearly state that unarmed damage is inflicted when initiating a successful Grapple. P: This seems to make logical sense when going step by step thru the rules. C: It is a strung together interpretation of existing rules and is not directly stated in the item description.

Anyway, all that aside, does anyone have any clarification of this, and baring that an opinion?

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I would say it deals no damage and uses the "pin" grappling option exclusively. In the description of the item, it does not state a damage, so I do not think it was meant to deal damage, just entangle as per the spell.

 

[Killer Shrike]

I would say it deals no damage and uses the "pin" grappling option exclusively. In the description of the item, it does not state a damage, so I do not think it was meant to deal damage, just entangle as per the spell.

Thanx for your response, but I have a few problems with your take:

Before you can use the pin option you first have to initiate a grapple. If you successfully initiate a grapple, you cause damage based on your size (1d3 for medium, 1d4 for large) + your Strength modifier. To pin an opponent you must make a second grapple check as another attack action.

Grapple [Varies][AoO: Yes]
Description: Grappling means wrestling and struggling hand-to-hand.
Repeatedly in a grapple, a character needs to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is something like a melee attack roll.

A character's attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium-size +0, Small –4, Tiny – 8, Diminutive –12, Fine –16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier a character uses when making an attack roll.

A character provokes an attack of opportunity from the target the character is trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals the character damage, the character fails to start the grapple.
To start a grapple, a character first needs to grab and hold a the target. Attempting to start a grapple is the equivalent of making a melee attack. If a character gets multiple attacks in a round, a character can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses). A monk can use his unarmed attack rate of attacks per round while grappling.

Step 1: Grab:
The character makes a melee touch attack to grab the target. If the character fails to hit the target, the character fails to start the grapple.

Step 2: Hold:
Make an opposed grapple check. If the character succeeds, the character has started the grapple, and the character deals damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
If the character loses, the character fails to start the grapple. The character automatically loses an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than the character is (but the character can still make an attempt to grab such a target, if that's all the character wants to do).

Step 3: Move In:
To maintain the grapple, the character must move into the target's space. Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies, but not from the character's target.

Step 4: Grappling:
The character and the target are now grappling.
If a character's target is already grappling someone else, then the character can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn't get an attack of opportunity against the character, and the character's grab automatically succeeds. The character still has to make a successful opposed grapple check to deal damage and must still move in to be part of the grapple.

When a character is grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), the character can make an opposed grapple check as an attack. If the character wins, the character can do the following:

Damage A character's Opponent: A character deals damage as with an unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium-size attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If a character wants to deal normal damage, the character suffers a -4 penalty on the grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is normal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as subdual damage when grappling without paying the usual -4 penalty for changing normal damage to subdual damage.

Pin: A character can hold an opponent immobile for 1 round. (If a character gets multiple attacks, the character can use subsequent attacks to damage the opponent. A character can't use a weapon on a pinned opponent or attempt to damage or pin a second opponent while holding a pin on the first.) While a character is pinned, opponents other than the one pinning the character get a +4 bonus on attack rolls against the character (but the character is not helpless).

Break Another's Pin: A character can break the hold that an opponent has over an ally.

Escape: A character can escape the grapple. A character can take whatever movement the character gets. If more than one opponent is grappling a character, the character's grapple check result has to beat all their check results to escape. (Opponents don't have to try to hold a character if they don't want to.)
When an opponent has pinned a character, the character is held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. The character can make an opposed grapple check as a melee attack. If the character wins, the character escapes the pin, but the character is still grappling.

In addition to making opposed grapple checks, a character has a few other options while grappling.
Weapons: A character can attack with a light weapon while grappling (but not while pinned or pinning). A character can't attack with two weapons while grappling.

Wriggle Free: A character can make an Escape Artist check (opposed by a character's opponent's grapple check) to get out of a grapple or out of being pinned (so that the character is just being grappled). Doing so counts as a standard action; if a character escapes a grapple, the character can also move in the same round.

Several characters can be in a single grapple. Up to four characters can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Opponents that are one size category smaller than a character count for half, opponents that are one size category larger than a character count double, and opponents two or more size categories larger count quadruple.

Additional enemies can aid their friends with the aid another action.

While a character is grappling, that character's ability to attack others and defend a itself is limited.

No Threatened Area: A character doesn't threaten any area while grappling.

No Dexterity Bonus: A character loses it's Dexterity bonus to AC (if a it has one) against opponents a it isn't grappling. (A character can still use the bonus against opponents the character is grappling.)

If RoE was intended to act as the spell entangle, it would have said 'as per the spell Entangle' or some such. It doesnt; instead it directly refers to Grappling.

Check out the differences:

Rope of Entanglement

A rope of entanglement looks just like any other hemp rope about 30 feet long. Upon command, the rope lashes forward 20 feet or upward 10 feet to entangle a victim, using a grapple attack with a +15 attack bonus (including +4 for being Large and +6 for its Strength score of 22).

The rope cannot be broken by sheer strength. It must be severed by an edged weapon. The rope has an AC of 22, 12 hit points, and a hardness of 10. Damage repairs itself at a rate of 1 point per 5 minutes, but if a rope of entanglement is severed (all 12 hit points lost to damage), it is destroyed.

Caster Level: 12th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, entangle, animate rope, animate objects; Market Price: 21,000 gp; Weight: 5 lb.

Entangle

Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Plant 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Reflex (see text)
Spell Resistance: No

Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those who enter the area, holding them fast. An entangled creature suffers a –2 penalty to attack rolls, suffers a –4 penalty to effective Dexterity, and can’t move. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15) or lose the spell. She can break free and move half her normal speed by using a full-round action to make a Strength check or an Escape Artist check (DC 20). A creature who succeeds at a Reflex saving throw is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures who have avoided or escaped entanglement.

 

[Killer Shrike]

As an aside, Skip Williams aka The Sage stated in on of the Sage advice columns that you must make a succesful grapple check vs an opponent for them to be 'grappled'. Thus, if an opponent succesfully makes a grapple check against you, you are grappled but they are not until you make a grapple check against them. I cant recall what issue of Dragon it was in, but I think it may have been the one with the green-skinned planetar on the cover. Does anyone remember this ruling or am I on crack?

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I was thinking more of Animate Rope. But ignore my previous post.

Read this:

DMG: Page 84 "Entangled: An entangled creature suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and a -4 penalty to effective Dexterity. If the bonds are anchored to an immobile object, the entangled character cannot move. Otherwise, he can move at half speed, but can't run or charge. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC usually 15) or lose the spell."

Have the rope make a grapple as normal, but use the above instead of damage. The victim escapes as per the normal grapple rules.

 

[Killer Shrike]

I was thinking more of Animate Rope. But ignore my previous post.

Read this:

DMG: Page 84 "Entangled: An entangled creature suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and a -4 penalty to effective Dexterity. If the bonds are anchored to an immobile object, the entangled character cannot move. Otherwise, he can move at half speed, but can't run or charge. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC usually 15) or lose the spell."

Have the rope make a grapple as normal, but use the above instead of damage. The victim escapes as per the normal grapple rules.

This seems to be a very strange kludge; Im not sure that makes sense. Combining Grappling with the actual Entangled game state causes other problems. For example, the actual Entangle spell sets the DC to escape it or break it at a flat unopposed DC 20 Strength or Escape Artist check. However, if you make it opposed and use the Grapple checks, the DC is effectively 15 + d20 (the RoE's Grapple bonus of +15 and its d20 grapple check), opposed by BAB+Size Mod+Str+d20. It totally changes the probabilities.

Also, just as the item description doesnt directly state that damage is inflicted, it also dosnt directly state that the target "suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and a -4 penalty to effective Dexterity. If the bonds are anchored to an immobile object, the entangled character cannot move. Otherwise, he can move at half speed, but can't run or charge. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC usually 15) or lose the spell." Thus, there is no more or less clarification via this means.


Im beginning to think that the RoE needs to be erratta'd as it does not seem to make much sense as it it.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

1) The rope is a Rope of Entanglement. It states: "Upon command, the rope lashes forward...to entangle a victim." There is a state called "entangle".

What else could it possibly do besides "entangle"?

2) Yes, it is vague. But I don't really think it's that difficult. It uses its grapple check to entangle. That's it. It is not like the Entangle spell because that deals with plants and vines in a huge radius. Look at the Animate Rope spell for how this kind of works.

It should not do damage. If it did damage, it would be an awesome magic item that could kill anything without an edged weapon or a high Escape Artist/Strength. You would have to Fireball it to kill it.

3) They should errata the whole dang game right now. Check out Artoomis' post on ambiguous rules...

 

[Killer Shrike]

1) The rope is a Rope of Entanglement. It states: "Upon command, the rope lashes forward...to entangle a victim." There is a state called "entangle".

What else could it possibly do besides "entangle"?

Yes, but it also specifically states that it makes a grapple attack and there is an entire chunk of rules on grappling. Thus, what it could do besides entangle is grapple.

2) Yes, it is vague. But I don't really think it's that difficult. It uses its grapple check to entangle. That's it. It is not like the Entangle spell because that deals with plants and vines in a huge radius. Look at the Animate Rope spell for how this kind of works.

Animate Rope

Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One ropelike object, length up to 50 ft. + 5 ft./level
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The character can animate a nonliving ropelike object, including string, yarn, cord, line, rope, or even a cable. The maximum length assumes a rope with a 1-inch diameter. Reduce the total length by 50% for every additional inch of thickness, and increase the length by 50% for each reduction of the rope's width by half. The possible commands are "Coil" (form a neat, coiled stack), "Coil and knot," "Loop," "Loop and knot," "Tie and knot," and the opposites of all of the above ("Uncoil," etc.). One command can be given each round as a standard action.

The rope can enwrap only a creature or an object within 1 foot of it-it does not snake outward-so it must be thrown near the intended target. Doing so requires a successful ranged touch attack roll. The rope has a range increment of 10 feet. A typical rope has 2 hit points, AC 10, and can be burst with a Strength check (DC 23). The rope does not deal damage of any type, but it can be used as a trip line or to entangle a single opponent who fails a Reflex saving throw. An entangled creature suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and a -4 penalty to effective Dexterity. If the rope can anchor itself to an immobile object, the entangled creature cannot move. Otherwise, it can move at half speed but can't run or charge. A creature capable of spellcasting that is bound by this spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15) to cast a spell. An entangled creature can slip free with an Escape Artist check (DC 20).

The rope itself, and any knots tied in it, are not magical.

This spell grants a +2 bonus to any Use Rope checks the character makes when using the transmuted rope.

This looks real similar to Entangle, and it uses a ranged touch attack instead of grapple check.

It should not do damage. If it did damage, it would be an awesome magic item that could kill anything without an edged weapon or a high Escape Artist/Strength. You would have to Fireball it to kill it.

It cant kill them at all because unarmed damage is subdual damage, and it could only KO them if they had fewer than (1d4 + 6) hp. As I stated above, I dont think it does damage every round, only when it first initiates a successful grapple, as per the grapple rules I quoted above.

3) They should errata the whole dang game right now. Check out Artoomis' post on ambiguous rules...

D&D 3.1e? Sure, Ill agree with that. The rules could benefit from a retread.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

hmmm - no, the rope cannot do damage - it is "programmed" only to grapple and pin.

If the character succeeds, the character has started the grapple, and the character deals damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

The rope has no wisdom or intelligence score - it is an object. It is NOT a character. now - if the rope were intelligent...

 

[Killer Shrike]

hmmm - no, the rope cannot do damage - it is "programmed" only to grapple and pin.

The rope has no wisdom or intelligence score - it is an object. It is NOT a character. now - if the rope were intelligent...

Thanx for responding.

1) The item description in no way mentions pinning.

2) The very act of grappling causes unarmed damage. Wisdom and Intelligence play no part in determining grapping failure or success or in the calculation of unarmed damage or any other form of damage.