RPGNow and the competition . . .

[eyebeams]

There's another issue at work here: Namely, that RPGs need better-defined semipro and amatuer markets.

DTRPG is there to get at a specific segment. The reason they use the annoying "professional" moniker is because they want some kind of indicator that their focus is on high quality professional offerings. The reason they have DRM (which I'm not too fond of) is probably to attract clients who would normally never sell their material in electronic form.

RPGNow has a large a thriving group of what could only be called semiprofessional and amatuer offerings. This isn't to say that they don't also have professionally produced material as well. The issue that comes up, though, is that there's no real way to tell hobbyist merchants apart from folks like Phil Reed, and sometimes, to be brutally frank, a lot of the former stuff is of wildly variable quality. Some of is is excellent. Some of it really, reallly isn't.

I think the fact that they approached Phil Reed is a good sign that they want the split to be between more than print and .pdf producers, but there really ought to be a split and consumers ought to have a good grasp of the differences. Why?

1) You should know the difference between pro and nonpro work so that you can make a choice knowing the production values have a chance of beeing significantly different for nonpro work.

2) You should be able to distinguish nonpro work for innovation and ideas that don't necessarily fly past the vetting process elsewhere.

3) Distributors should be able to tell them apart so that they can assess whether or not to invest in professional-quality .pdf producers without getting stung. I can only imagine the hideous amount of work involved sifting through stuff to find what's worth supporting

4) Writers should have a better idea of who's going to pay them and pay them well. I can attest to this personally, since I've been stung once by a company who ended up being far less professional than they purported to be.

5) It would discourage products that neither make money nor offer anything distinct to the hobby.

It seems like the percentage increase isn't a very good idea, though (shouldn't quality be its own draw, here?), and I would prefer it if DRM was not a mandatory part of doing business with DTRPG.

 

[jmucchiello]

There's another issue at work here: Namely, that RPGs need better-defined semipro and amatuer markets.

Why? An artificial need if I ever saw one. If you want to know if a particular PDF meets your standards, read reviews, look at demos, etc.

I've seen print products that I'd consider amateurish released by "professional" publishers. This so-called problem is not unique to PDFs. It's a simple matter of caveat emptor. That is a solved problem: strive not to be "just a consumer", be "an informed consumer".

 

[Cergorach]

1) You should know the difference between pro and nonpro work so that you can make a choice knowing the production values have a chance of beeing significantly different for nonpro work.

How would you make the distinction?
I just read a couple of Blood and Space and while most gave it 4/5, there was one that gave the product 1/5 and some people agreed with that rating (i'm not one of them btw). One's gem is another's crappile and vice versa.
I wouldn't know how to start making the distinction between pro and nonpro publishing. As a matter of fact i woud say that it's all pro publishing, but some of it's good and some... really, really isn't.

Maybe companies like RPGNow should just start designating certain products as "good stuff" and maybe stop carrying certain other products. Any FLGS can choose what products it carries, so why can't RPGNow? If they don't carry something people can always request it by e-mail to be carried by RPGNow...

 

[drnuncheon]

The average person is not even remotely aware that purhcasing a $5000 piece of software and making a copy for their friend or everybody at work is illegal.

I think that most people who copy software (or PDFs, or similar things - like mp3s) are perfectly aware that it's illegal, and rationalize it in some way - "I can't afford it" or "I can't get it any other way" or "Information wants to be free" or even "Who cares? I'll never get caught anyway".

J

 

[drnuncheon]

There's another issue at work here: Namely, that RPGs need better-defined semipro and amatuer markets.

<snip>

The issue that comes up, though, is that there's no real way to tell hobbyist merchants apart from folks like Phil Reed

Really, (and meaning no disrespect to Phil, who's done great stuff), what is the difference? Phil's just this guy who decided to write d20 PDFs, the same as everyone else on there.

Is it the production quality of his work? I just bought a PDF from him that had absolutely no artwork, so that can't be it. Is it the fact that he has other people writing for his company? But that leaves Skeleton Key Games out of the "professional" category, which is surely unjust. Is it that this is his only job? (If it even is - I don't know!) That's no proof of quality, which seems to be what you're looking for.

So, I'm really not sure what a better defined "pro/semi-pro/am" split would do, other than make some people feel happy (and some sad) about their placement. I'd rather buy from a talented amateur than a lousy pro.

J

 

[eyebeams]

Really, (and meaning no disrespect to Phil, who's done great stuff), what is the difference? Phil's just this guy who decided to write d20 PDFs, the same as everyone else on there.

Is it the production quality of his work? I just bought a PDF from him that had absolutely no artwork, so that can't be it. Is it the fact that he has other people writing for his company? But that leaves Skeleton Key Games out of the "professional" category, which is surely unjust. Is it that this is his only job? (If it even is - I don't know!) That's no proof of quality, which seems to be what you're looking for.

So, I'm really not sure what a better defined "pro/semi-pro/am" split would do, other than make some people feel happy (and some sad) about their placement. I'd rather buy from a talented amateur than a lousy pro.

J

Phil Reed has numerous professional credits and is (from what I've come to understand) acting on a business plan designed to financially support him and his. I know that this is not a hobby or a vanity thing for him. I know that and creative talent is being paid well and works under fair conditions. In short, I know that there's a set of standards that the very nature of his business mandates.

It's not my intention to dump on semipro or amateur projects. If someone's work is really that great, then they obviously deserve recognition for that.

But it's also a fact that there are folks who do business with RPGNow who do not deserve your money, for a number of reasons:

1) Poor quality.

2) Mediocre quality products created by people who are not taking any real financial risks and who do not rely on them as a source of income, competing with products that are at least as good being produced by folks who *do* have something to risk and *are* trying to put food on the table.

If two companies come out with books about orcs and one is a real business and one is a vanity hobby, with all else equal I'll buy from the real business each and every time -- and you should, too. I want people to be able to make money in this industry. I want skilled folks like Bruce Baugh and James Maliszewski to make money and I want them to have a notable profile in the community. I want companies to have a prominent profile so that they can affford to hire these guys and so that they can afford to hire new talent.

The SF, fantasy and horror markets have the kind of standards I'm talking about, and it doesn't really keep anybody new down (the problems are in the deline of midlist authors, which is a bit different) and in fact, when an amatuer venture does well, you can see it move up. Plus, it works both ways; defining different communities lets us know who's coming up. It's no accident that, for example, Alaraums and Excursions (an old APA publication) has been the stomping ground for some of the most influential designers out there. "Amatuer" is certainly no mark of shame in this context. These are dynamic communities filled with folks who could explore ideas to their fullest extent without being hamstrung by commercial concerns.

For writers like myself, it's also important to be able to identify folks who succeed regularly according to certain standards, because it gives me a better idea of who will pay and who might rip me off. For larger distributors and publishers, it makes it easy to identify who's coming up and to give them a shot at broader success.

 

[philreed]

Really, (and meaning no disrespect to Phil, who's done great stuff), what is the difference? Phil's just this guy who decided to write d20 PDFs, the same as everyone else on there.

Actually, I've been working in the game industry for about a decade. I've done freelance work for numerous companies, spent time at Steve Jackson Games doing a wide variety of jobs (from layout to product design and planning to marketing) and have published PDFs for over two years now.

Is it the production quality of his work? I just bought a PDF from him that had absolutely no artwork, so that can't be it. Is it the fact that he has other people writing for his company? But that leaves Skeleton Key Games out of the "professional" category, which is surely unjust. Is it that this is his only job? (If it even is - I don't know!) That's no proof of quality, which seems to be what you're looking for.

Ronin Arts is my only job. I do take the occasional freelance job but it accounts for less than 10% of my income. Also, I produce a wide range of products and go from no art to lots of graphics/art. The amount of graphics/art in a product is determined by how large it is and how much time is put into it. The no art products are primarily plug-n-play and, from discussions with many customers, the prefer no art for these projects.

 

[jmucchiello]

But it's also a fact that there are folks who do business with RPGNow who do not deserve your money, for a number of reasons:

1) Poor quality.

2) Mediocre quality products created by people who are not taking any real financial risks and who do not rely on them as a source of income, competing with products that are at least as good being produced by folks who *do* have something to risk and *are* trying to put food on the table.

So there are two things quality and quality? I don't see how financial risk affects or reflects the quality of the product. What if a millionaire were writing RPGs as his full-time "job" because it was what he wanted to do? He's not really risking anything does that make him unprofessional? (That's rhetorical.)

Regardless, there are also a lot of great PDFs on RPGNow by so called amateurs. I guess you wouldn't buy a painting by a no-name artist? Never buy furniture from a guy how builds it in his garage? Never accept cookies from an amateur chef? If you don't buy those cookies from keebler they might have to lay off some elves.

I want skilled folks like Bruce Baugh and James Maliszewski to make money and I want them to have a notable profile in the community. I want companies to have a prominent profile so that they can affford to hire these guys and so that they can afford to hire new talent.

Where do you think they're going to find those new talents except perhaps in the vanity press area? Do you think writers just sit around doing nothing while waiting for the big guys to phone them up? No, if they are good writers they practice writing. And if you are writing it anyway, why not release it too? Some do so for free. Others hang a shingle on places like RPGNow.

For writers like myself, it's also important to be able to identify folks who succeed regularly according to certain standards, because it gives me a better idea of who will pay and who might rip me off. For larger distributors and publishers, it makes it easy to identify who's coming up and to give them a shot at broader success.

I've heard far more horror stories about not being paid by companies with business plans that solo artists. In fact, most solo shops pride themselves on never stiffing anybody. (I know I do. I know Sigil does.) Hang out on RPG.net's freelancer forum and ask the artists there how often they get shafted or delayed payments from "respectable professionals."

Professional has many connotations. You seem to think it only means "people taking risks." I think it means "people who take pride in what they do and act accordingly." I'd much rather work with my kind of professionals than people don't live up to my definition but do live up to yours.

 

[drnuncheon]

If two companies come out with books about orcs and one is a real business and one is a vanity hobby, with all else equal I'll buy from the real business each and every time -- and you should, too.

All else being equal? When is that ever going to happen in the real world? Never, because the only way everything could be equal is if the books were exactly the same, and that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

One of those books is likely to be cheaper. One is likely to be better produced. One is likely to appeal to me more. And if it's the one by the "amateur", that's the one I'm going to buy. If the guy doing it for a business can't produce as good a product as the amateur, then I'm not going to give him my business just because it's his job - he needs to get better to compete.

Ronin Arts is my only job. I do take the occasional freelance job but it accounts for less than 10% of my income. Also, I produce a wide range of products and go from no art to lots of graphics/art. The amount of graphics/art in a product is determined by how large it is and how much time is put into it. The no art products are primarily plug-n-play and, from discussions with many customers, the prefer no art for these projects.

Phil, please don't think I intended to disparage you - Ronin Arts was the lucky(?) victim of being my latest purchase, and therefore got used as an example because it was in the front of my mind.

J

 

[TheAuldGrump]

And about three out of four times I will take the 'amateur' production, because contrary to Eyebeam's opinion a small press is more likely to take a 'risk' in regards to thinking outside of the box.

'Amateur' means 'lover', and I will take a lover over a professional in this case, they are doing what they do because they want to, not merely for a paycheck. (Sorry Phil, by this definition you are still an 'amateur.. )

The Auld Grump