RPGNow and the competition . . .

[eyebeams]

And about three out of four times I will take the 'amateur' production, because contrary to Eyebeam's opinion a small press is more likely to take a 'risk' in regards to thinking outside of the box.

That is not in fact contrary to my opinion, indicating to me that perhaps you have not read what I wrote. I specifically mentioned the importance of the amatuer niche in allowing new designers to experiment.

As I made perfectly clear, I'm not talking about keeping talented amateurs down. In fact, I'm talking about recognizing levels of commitment and competence so that people who would be better off publishing for free on the web don't ride on these people's coattails and don't make it harder for them to sell products.

I suggest people open their eyes and actually look at what RPGNow is selling with some reasonable discernment. RPGNow is a hotbed for great new games and supplements -- but there are many other books that should not be commercial offerings because they are derivative or redundant.

'Amateur' means 'lover', and I will take a lover over a professional in this case, they are doing what they do because they want to, not merely for a paycheck. (Sorry Phil, by this definition you are still an 'amateur.. )

90% of the people who work in this industry take a dramatic cut in income compared to what they could earn in another field. It's unfortunate that you falsely believe otherwise, and a backhanded insult, to boot.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I suggest people open their eyes and actually look at what RPGNow is selling with some reasonable discernment. RPGNow is a hotbed for great new games and supplements -- but there are many other books that should not be commercial offerings because they are derivative or redundant.

It may be a cliche, but "One man's trash is another man's treasure" would fit in right here.

 

[philreed]

Phil, please don't think I intended to disparage you - Ronin Arts was the lucky(?) victim of being my latest purchase, and therefore got used as an example because it was in the front of my mind.

No problem. I'm pretty comfortable with my skills and know what I'm capable of. I wasn't bothered at all by your post, just trying to give some information on what I do (and why).

 

[GMSkarka]

RPGNow has instituted a set of professional standards for all product. If you find a product that you feel does not meet a professional standard, then bring it to the attention of RPGNow, preferably via writing a review on the site, and by contacting the powers-that-be (contact info is all over the site-- Customer Service emails go to me, in fact).

Now that all of our publishers have received the standards document, if we get indication that a product is substandard, we can take a closer look at it, and remove it if does turn out to be a festering pile of crap.

The tools are there, folks. Use 'em.

 

[FoolishFrost]

eyebeams, have you ever created a PDF product? Also, I would like to see a list fo the PDF products you have bought.

Why?

Because you just effectivly advocated people not buying my products because I LIKE my work. You also said that I was not professional because I refused to gamble my entire paycheck on the RPG industry.

Quality is not based on a company's size, income, or anything else. It's based on a unwillingness to put out crap (excuse me).

Every so often, I hear someone come out and speak poorly of the PDF industry as not being as good as print, or that 90% of it is crud, or that 'vanity' publishing is bad.

It's all hogwash.

PDFs are a great item, when priced properly they allow you to go to office-max and print/bind it for the same cost as buying it as a print book in the first place (including the PDF cost). I have printed Elements of Magic and Four Colors to Fantasy (both PDFs from ENW) and the usefulness of these two books has passed every other print book I've ever used for d20.

I've only gotten 10% crud in all of the PDFs that I've bought, and that's MUCH better than my print luck.

It's ALL 'vanity' publishing. Every bit of it. Look around you: RPGs are not a needed product, they're a nitch market that people are only BARILY willing to pay for. Anybody who is in this business is in it because he LIKES it, not because it earns his paycheck. I earn more manning phones for EDS tech support in one month than I have for an entire YEAR of writing and publishing books. Even those working for large RPG companies say they can often earn more at the local Wal-Mart than doing what they do.

And about the comment we should buy from 'Professional' companies since they need the money more than us poor 'vanity' publishers do: You can buy from who you like, but I don't see you rallying to help me pay off my artists. Please don't take food from my OR their mouths, thank-you-very-much.

And by the way: D&D was published out of a BASEMENT! By two guys trying to share something neat they made. If not for them, the small vanity publisher, you would be sitting around watching Soaps on TV.

I don't know why these kinds of comments bug me the way they do. I feel like I should be used to them by now.

But I'm not.

Later,
A very annoyed:

 

[GMSkarka]

eyebeams, have you ever created a PDF product?

He's the author of Posthuman: The Definitive D20 Guide to Human Augmentation, which I just released this past week.

You also said that I was not professional because I refused to gamble my entire paycheck on the RPG industry.

That's not what he said.

For what it's worth--if you're not doing this as a business, but as a hobby, then you might be professional (in presentation or behavior) but you're not A professional (meaning: somebody who does it for a living).

Every so often, I hear someone come out and speak poorly of the PDF industry as not being as good as print, or that 90% of it is crud, or that 'vanity' publishing is bad.

It's all hogwash.

If it was all hogwash, then RPGNow wouldn't have to had put a standards document into effect. There *is* a lot of crap being produced, and most of it is being produced by 'vanity' publishers, and RPGNow is starting to weed those out, with the standards doc and the start-up fee (which chases away most of the wannabes who aren't serious about this).

Anybody who is in this business is in it because he LIKES it, not because it earns his paycheck.

Um....I like it, AND it earns my entire paycheck. This is what I do for a living, and I know of a bunch of other folks who do as well.

 

[FoolishFrost]

Um....I like it, AND it earns my entire paycheck. This is what I do for a living, and I know of a bunch of other folks who do as well.

True. I messworded (yes, that is the correct spelling) it. The truth I was attempting to get at is that you could make more money writing elsewhere, and even more by working in another field.

And about the paycheck: No, that's not what he said. That's what it FELT like he was saying. Another poor choice of phrasing.

Lastly, about hogwash: Nope. I stand by what I said. I've gotten less cruddy PDFs at RPGNow than I've bought from RPG shops.

Now don't get me wrong: I would love RPGs to earn me my entire paycheck. I just do not see it happening for quite a while. I currently have five products out, and would need quite a bit more before I would begin earning enough income to do this full-time. Could I write for other companies? Sure, but that's still not a steady paycheck even if you're a name writer. Can I choose to work for another company? Sure, but then all of the work I put into AAP goes to the wayside, since I couldn't morally push my own products very hard while working for another RPG company.

Anyway, I just get tired of seeing the professional/vanity club coming out. I mean really, there's gotta be the best and the worst of every product line. Toasters, novels, and RPG products. It's just not right to group people in that way. I don't group all of the major publishers together as the same quality just because they belong to the same tax bracket.

Anyway, I'm done ranting on this for now. I vented my spleen and can get back to being a sane human being again.

Later,

 

[Cergorach]

For what it's worth--if you're not doing this as a business, but as a hobby, then you might be professional (in presentation or behavior) but you're not A professional (meaning: somebody who does it for a living).

Check that: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=professional
It says there "Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career". So it doesn't matter whether you make a 100% of your livelihood by writing RPGs or 1%, you have a source.

Personally i don't care whether someone is a 'professional' or not, it's not the first thing i look for in a product. I look whether it's pleasing to the eye (does it look kewl?), whether it's interesting material, whether it's easy to digest, and finally whether the rules work (are balanced) as advertised. Whether you succeed or not in the above has nothing to do with whether your a professional or not, it has something to do with whether or not you can produce a great product. And just because something sells doesn't mean it's great, it just means that the expecations that where create by the marketing techniques paid off for the publisher.

That doesn't mean i disagree with the idea that there are a lot of 'products' out there that waste paper or bandwith. It just means that you can't judge a book by it's cover or it's writer, as a publisher your only as good as your last book.

Um....I like it, AND it earns my entire paycheck. This is what I do for a living, and I know of a bunch of other folks who do as well.

Sure you do this for a living, but is this the most efficient way to earn your paycheck? Do you have to keep track of every penny you make? Do you earn more per hour of work then the yahoos at macdonalds flipping burgers? I for one currently work in a business i wouldn't be in if i wasn't paid for it, can you say the same? I earn, with my 32 hour a week job, more then my father did working his 50 hour job, and i don't even have to try very hard. That's not to rub anyone's nose in it, but i am trying to illustrate a point. There are 'easier' jobs out there, ones that let you earn more money for less work that an intelligent person, like a rpg writer, could easily occupy. The one reason, why you wouldn't do that is because you like writing so much that your willing to make less money doing a job you really like instead of doing a job because you are doing it for the money. I think i could earn a 'living' as an illustrator/designer/layoutartist/publisher, but i would need to spend a lot more hours a week doing that and probably earn less then i do now. I think it would be great, but the problem with me is that i work great under stress, but when that stress creates worries (and worrying where my next project is going to come from is very worrysome), those worries manifest in very nasty rashes. Limit the worries and limit my physical discomforts. ;-) In short, people in the rpg business are generally not in it because they'll earn a lot for doing little...

 

[eyebeams]

Because you just effectivly advocated people not buying my products because I LIKE my work.

I did no such thing. Right now, I'm looking at what you have up for sale and I can see that you've put a nice twist on most of your offerings. It looks like, conceptually at least, it has a place. But I feel that the fact that nobody can really point to your work as being of a type, it's going to be less successful than it could be. If it was frankly looked at as semiprofessional work, then it would be easier to hold it up as being distinctive for its category. You might actually make *more* money in the end.

Everyone is hung up on amateur and semiprofessional as perjorative terms. This is not the case. I've read excellent semipro SF and horror and, in fact, I go out of my way to look for gems in these categories. But if I have no idea if you're somebody in a basement or a sideline for a larger company, or what, I don't even have the chance to look for your stuff.

You also said that I was not professional because I refused to gamble my entire paycheck on the RPG industry.

Gareth already covered this.

Quality is not based on a company's size, income, or anything else. It's based on a unwillingness to put out crap (excuse me).

It's not completely about quality. There looks to be around 200-300 listed manufacturers in RPGNow's drop down menu. Can you honestly say that there's enough breadth out there to support that many distinct brands? Yes, I'm sure you can toss a line about everybody having a unique snowflake of a product out there, but think: Is that really true?

I'd rather help serious businesses thrive for the good of the hobby as a whole with both my dollars and my labour. For instance, Posthuman's design is meant to plug into existing rules instead of replace them, so that you can buy it along with one of Ronin Arts' cybernetics books and multiply the value of both products.

Every so often, I hear someone come out and speak poorly of the PDF industry as not being as good as print, or that 90% of it is crud, or that 'vanity' publishing is bad.

Theodore Sturgeon famously quipped that 90% of everything is crap. Theodore Sturgeon wrote a classic SF story called Killdozer. Frankly, if his story was released in the "Heavy Equipment, Evil" section of a sales service along with 20 or more similarly titled and themed stories it would by difficult to find it and give it its due?

It's ALL 'vanity' publishing. Every bit of it.

No, it isn't. It really isn't.

Look around you: RPGs are not a needed product, they're a nitch market that people are only BARILY willing to pay for. Anybody who is in this business is in it because he LIKES it, not because it earns his paycheck.

I find arguments like this loathesome, since they imply that nobody ought to expect to be rewarded for work that they actually enjoy.

I earn more manning phones for EDS tech support in one month than I have for an entire YEAR of writing and publishing books. Even those working for large RPG companies say they can often earn more at the local Wal-Mart than doing what they do.

This is not "vanity," in any way, shape or form. Am I hearing you right, though? Are you arguing that because your expectations are so low others should have theirs dragged down?

This is destructive to everyones interests -- including yours -- in ways I can't even begin to enumerate.

And about the comment we should buy from 'Professional' companies since they need the money more than us poor 'vanity' publishers do: You can buy from who you like, but I don't see you rallying to help me pay off my artists. Please don't take food from my OR their mouths, thank-you-very-much.

As you've admitted, nobody can take food from your mouth. At best, they can shave the icing off your cake.

 

[FoolishFrost]

Ok, I think I'm beginning to see your side of it. I'm guessing it was the phrasing then that set me off.

About there being too many products:

Sorry, but the problem is not going to change for the better. The internet has given us more tools for sharing info than we have ever had before, but its main problem is the one you just spoke of: Information overload.

We can't stop it, really. And to make matters worse, pirating of commercial information (ie books and software) is something that comes with it.

The only thing that can be done is what's already been done: Better search features that take into account the person's previous tastes in information... Community forums that can pass information person-to-person about what to avoid and what to get... Finally, being capable of using those tools to make a decision.


If two companies come out with books about orcs and one is a real business and one is a vanity hobby, with all else equal I'll buy from the real business each and every time -- and you should, too.

Ok, I reread everything you wrote with a critical eye to my own reaction, and this was probably what set me on the rampage. Later, I see you clairifying your position with much better phrasing, and think it can be put down to a misunderstanding.


This is not "vanity," in any way, shape or form. Am I hearing you right, though? Are you arguing that because your expectations are so low others should have theirs dragged down?

This is destructive to everyones interests -- including yours -- in ways I can't even begin to enumerate.

Hmnn... Nope. You're hearing wrong: I said that people don't come into this industry to make themselves rich. Let's try this: Show me someone who absolutely HATES RPGs and still works in the business because he can't afford to take a paycut in another industry.

It's not destructive, it's apparently a fact. I have not seen anything to dispute it. It's also not low expectations either, it's from not only running AAP, but hearing from people like Gary Gygax on down. My business seems to bring an average of about $50 per month. I would seemingly need about 20 times my current offerings to make money. We both know that the truth is that as I produce more products, my older offerings will sell better due to greater name influence.

The point is, my marketing plan was to develop AAP until it COULD be a standard income. Your statement about my products not having a single 'type' is true. Right now I'm attempting to see what the market will actually buy. What they say they want does not seem to factor into it.


As you've admitted, nobody can take food from your mouth. At best, they can shave the icing off your cake.

Back that up. My artists get MOST of the money AAP makes. Considering a few do art as their primary occupation, it becomes very important to them. Nobody buys, they loose income, and it hurts them.

No, I guess your right. It won't hurt them because I wouldn't let it. I'll see to it they get paid regardless of if my products sell, because it's not right to deny people their due. The world may not be fair, but I bloody well aim to be.


Anyway, I feel like I should apologize for the snarl. Even if you had meant to be churish (no, I don't think you did now), I shouldn't of jumped in. Throwing gas on a fire never helps.

Later,