RPGNow and the competition . . .

[drnuncheon]

Of course not; that's part of the problem. You have no easy opportunity to do so.

I wasn't speaking of opportunity, but desire. I go looking for (say) a d20 supplement about sailing. I don't go looking for 'a supplement by a semi-pro author'.

In fact, if there was a pro/semipro/amateur division, it might unfairly influence people against checking in categories other than 'pro', or cause them to think that a 'professional' product was in all cases going to be better than the other two categories.

Like several other people, you're countering a statement I never actually made. It's not about giving anybody "slack."

It's not? Then what did you mean by this:

If it was frankly looked at as semiprofessional work, then it would be easier to hold it up as being distinctive for its category. You might actually make *more* money in the end.

Doesn't that suggest that you are judging professional and semiprofessional work based on different criteria? If the critera are different, doesn't that indicate that one or the other is going to be judged more leniently? If not, then what is the difference between your judging criteria between the two?

J

 

[GMSkarka]

If sales from Adamant earns you your entire paycheck, does that mean that the customer service work you do for RPGNow is done for free?

No, it's not done for free, but the amount of time I spend doing that, and the fee that I charge James for it, is barely a consideration when compared to my income from Adamant.

I think of it like this: My Adamant income pays my bills, clothes and feeds my family, etc. The income I get from RPGNow is my "mad money"--pizza, movies, etc. I do it because I like James, the work is easy, and it puts a few extra bucks in my pocket.

 

[eyebeams]

I wasn't speaking of opportunity, but desire. I go looking for (say) a d20 supplement about sailing. I don't go looking for 'a supplement by a semi-pro author'.

Well, it's not really a consideration because you can't do so with any accuracy in the first place.

In fact, if there was a pro/semipro/amateur division, it might unfairly influence people against checking in categories other than 'pro', or cause them to think that a 'professional' product was in all cases going to be better than the other two categories.

This hasn't really been the case in mainstream publishing markets. In fact, as I've notred aerlier, it hasn't even been the case in gaming (vis a vis Alaraums and Excursions) either.

Doesn't that suggest that you are judging professional and semiprofessional work based on different criteria?

Yes.

If the critera are different, doesn't that indicate that one or the other is going to be judged more leniently?

No.

If not, then what is the difference between your judging criteria between the two?

As I've said, one ought to buy from a working business if you have the choice between two products of equal quality. If one product is superior to the other, then you buy the better one, no matter who makes it. In addition, you should buy innovative work from amatuers and semipros whenever possible, *even if other aspects of the design are not up to snuff compared to a non-innovative counterpart.* For example, I think everyone probably ought to own a copy of The Riddle of Steel even thought its organizational and production values are not what I would see as required for another company, because TRoS' content is worth supporting. If you make this decision, then Driftwood Publishing can actually afford a superior second edition. But you *shouldn't* tolerate this from professionals. This way, you keep pros honest and boost amatuers with something fresh to offer.

 

[Jonny Nexus]

Check that: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=professional
It says there "Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career". So it doesn't matter whether you make a 100% of your livelihood by writing RPGs or 1%, you have a source.

Okay, as someone who probably makes between a half and one percent of his "income" from RPG writing (a monthly column in the Mongoose magazine Signs & Portents), I'll bite.

I don't consider myself to be a professional writer. Don't get me wrong, I've very proud of the fact that I get paid to write. But when describing myself, I'll never go further than saying something along the lines of, "I'm a semi-professional writer, with emphasis on the semi!"

I wouldn't claim to be a professional, because I'm not.

My take on it is that unless the money you are getting supplies a significant* portion of what you require each month, then it doesn't really qualify as a "source of livelihood" because your livelihood is not dependent on that money.

* Significant in the sense that your lifestyle would have to alter to a noticable extent if that income were removed.

 

[Cergorach]

Okay, as someone who probably makes between a half and one percent of his "income" from RPG writing (a monthly column in the Mongoose magazine Signs & Portents), I'll bite.

I don't consider myself to be a professional writer. Don't get me wrong, I've very proud of the fact that I get paid to write. But when describing myself, I'll never go further than saying something along the lines of, "I'm a semi-professional writer, with emphasis on the semi!"

I wouldn't claim to be a professional, because I'm not.

My take on it is that unless the money you are getting supplies a significant* portion of what you require each month, then it doesn't really qualify as a "source of livelihood" because your livelihood is not dependent on that money.

* Significant in the sense that your lifestyle would have to alter to a noticable extent if that income were removed.

Hmm... Ok, so your saying that being a professional rpg writer means that a significant amount of money needs to come from writing/publishing.

Let's see, I think we all consider Monte Cook a professional rpg writer/publisher. Lets say he's offered a job outside the rpg business that occupies more then half his working hours and pays more then he now earns writing rpgs. He takes the job but still continues to write rpgs less then half his work time, money from rpgs becomes extra cash. Is Monte still a professional or not? In other words can you loose the professional status by suddenly having more money from other sources?

I think that Orcus (clark) is a lawyer by day, if he makes his living being a lawyer and writing rpgs is a side gig, does that make hima a professional or not? I certainly think that the Necromancer stuff is 'professional'/good.

 

[Jonny Nexus]

Hmm... Ok, so your saying that being a professional rpg writer means that a significant amount of money needs to come from writing/publishing.

Let's see, I think we all consider Monte Cook a professional rpg writer/publisher. Lets say he's offered a job outside the rpg business that occupies more then half his working hours and pays more then he now earns writing rpgs. He takes the job but still continues to write rpgs less then half his work time, money from rpgs becomes extra cash. Is Monte still a professional or not? In other words can you loose the professional status by suddenly having more money from other sources?

I think that Orcus (clark) is a lawyer by day, if he makes his living being a lawyer and writing rpgs is a side gig, does that make hima a professional or not?

I didn't say that you had to earn the majority of your living from RPGs, merely that it had to be a significant part of your living. If 20% or 30% of your income comes from writing RPGs then losing that income would be noticable and would require you to make significant adjustments to your lifestyle. But if 1% of your income comes from writing RPGs then unless you were either a) someone who keeps a detailed track of their finances, or b) already on the financial edge, you most likely wouldn't notice that your income had dropped.

With me, the money I earn through RPG writing doesn't go on food. It doesn't go on household bills. It doesn't go to pay my mortgage. It doesn't even go towards comics, books or RPGs.

So do you want to know what it goes on? Well I'll tell you.

I spend the money I earn writing RPG articles on having those articles framed:

I'm so not a professional!

I certainly think that the Necromancer stuff is 'professional'/good.

That's a totally different matter. Just because something is written to a "professional" quality does not make the person who wrote it a professional. I think that the stuff I write is 'professional'/good. But I myself am not a professional. Because writing RPGs is not how I earn my living.

My "living" is food, mortgage, car, bills, transport, house, going out and I pay for that by working as a computer programmer.

 

[Cergorach]

I didn't say that you had to earn the majority of your living from RPGs, merely that it had to be a significant part of your living. If 20% or 30% of your income comes from writing RPGs then losing that income would be noticable and would require you to make significant adjustments to your lifestyle. But if 1% of your income comes from writing RPGs then unless you were either a) someone who keeps a detailed track of their finances, or b) already on the financial edge, you most likely wouldn't notice that your income had dropped.

With me, the money I earn through RPG writing doesn't go on food. It doesn't go on household bills. It doesn't go to pay my mortgage. It doesn't even go towards comics, books or RPGs.

So do you want to know what it goes on? Well I'll tell you.
[
I spend the money I earn writing RPG articles on having those articles framed:

I'm so not a professional!

That's a totally different matter. Just because something is written to a "professional" quality does not make the person who wrote it a professional. I think that the stuff I write is 'professional'/good. But I myself am not a professional. Because writing RPGs is not how I earn my living.

My "living" is food, mortgage, car, bills, transport, house, going out and I pay for that by working as a computer programmer.

Woot! I wish had room for hanging up things like that! Very kewl!

So what we have is someone who is a 'professional' and we have stuff that is written to a 'professional' quality. One says something about the person making the stuff, but actually nothing about the stuff, the other says something about the stuff and nothing about the person making the stuff. I would rather that the stuff (rpg material) gets rated then the authors/publishers. Some of the older Mongoose stuff for example might have been made by a professional, but it certainly wasn't professional quality (not a jab at you as i haven't seen your work, i think).

I think it's worth more to the consumer that rpg material get's rated on it's own merits instead of the status of the author/publisher.

 

[Jonny Nexus]

So what we have is someone who is a 'professional' and we have stuff that is written to a 'professional' quality. One says something about the person making the stuff, but actually nothing about the stuff, the other says something about the stuff and nothing about the person making the stuff.

I think that sums it up exactly. In some ways, I think it's unhelpful to use the word "professional" to mean two different things since it leads to this kind of confusion.

It's a bit different the other way round, because we have:

Amateur - Someone who does something, but is not paid to do it.

Amateurish - A product that is poorly produced and would not be worth paying money for.

Using "professional" to indicate a quality produce or service is logical only in the sense that people who are paid to do something should have enough pride and professionalism to do a good job - something which is regrettably not always the case, as anyone who has ever employed a builder will be able to tell you.

So "professional" work is not work produced by a "professional", but is instead a standard that you think professionals should be able to produce.

Just as describing something as "amaturish" does not mean that you think it is produced by amateurs. In fact, it usually means that it is shoddy work you've purchased off professionals, and by calling it amateurish you're saying that it's not worth the money. (In fact, you generally wouldn't call an amateur's work amateurish, because it would be, wouldn't it? They're amateurs!)

And that has nothing to do with the earnings of the person behind the work, but whether or not you paid for it.

So I guess my angle is this: if I get something for free (i.e. a web thing) I'll treat it as an amateur product. If I pay for it then I expect it to be of professional quality. The business model, profit margins, and profit volume of the organisation producing it are not my concern.

 

[drnuncheon]

Well, it's not really a consideration because you can't do so with any accuracy in the first place.

It's not a consideration because I have no desire to do so.

This hasn't really been the case in mainstream publishing markets.

There are vast differences between mainstram and gaming publishing markets. TSR's failure to recognize this was one of the major contributors to its financial problems.

In addition, you should buy innovative work from amatuers and semipros whenever possible, *even if other aspects of the design are not up to snuff compared to a non-innovative counterpart.*

In other words, you have more lenient standards for amateur and semi-pro. You don't expect the same thing from them. You are, to use the words that you objected to, "cutting them some slack".

J

 

[Cergorach]

So I guess my angle is this: if I get something for free (i.e. a web thing) I'll treat it as an amateur product. If I pay for it then I expect it to be of professional quality. The business model, profit margins, and profit volume of the organisation producing it are not my concern.

Alrighty! We're on the same page.

Now comes the question that just begs to be asked: If you get something for free (i.e. a web thing), and it's of professional quality, will you pay/donate for it after you got (i.e. downloaded) it?