RPGNow and the competition . . .

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Cergorach said:
Alrighty! We're on the same page.

Now comes the question that just begs to be asked: If you get something for free (i.e. a web thing), and it's of professional quality, will you pay/donate for it after you got (i.e. downloaded) it?

Well yeah, if they're soliciting donations, although in that case, it's not really free - it's "shareware" (for want of a better phrase).

But yeah, I'm happy to put my hands in my pockets to support something which a) needs support, and b) deserves support (which was why I paid the members fee thingy for ENWorld).
 

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It's not a consideration because I have no desire to do so.

You have no desire to do so because it's never been marketed to you. Sorry, but even though I know you're probably seething with insistence that you're a unique individual, segmented marketing works.

There are vast differences between mainstram and gaming publishing markets. TSR's failure to recognize this was one of the major contributors to its financial problems.

OK, I'll bite. Why do *you* think TSR went under and how did it have anything whatsoever to do with the common amatuer/pro/semipro designation in publishing markets? If you can provide *one* point of connection then I'll be suitably impressed. Otherwise, this sounds like more parroting of the marketing theories of a certain person who couldn't make a dime off of RPGs outside of Dungeons and Dragons, and, even giving these credence, failing to even use them in the proper context.

In other words, you have more lenient standards for amateur and semi-pro. You don't expect the same thing from them. You are, to use the words that you objected to, "cutting them some slack".

You could only believe I was saying this by deliberate misreading. I expect amateurs to contribute something genuinely new to the hobby. I expect professionals to provide consistent quality. Because, y'know, it's possible to expect *different* but *equivalent* standards from each tier.
 
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I think the problem people have with designating ProAm levels is that it is meaningless. Innovative ideas come a million times a day. The quality is not based on industry commitment. The tiered system suggested will only allow an elitist group of developers. The question is are "pro" books actually better than the guy who only does it on the side? I don't think that we should ever reward people for lack of quality. If a book is done well then it should sell well if there is a market for it.
Why would I care if someone is professional. The idea that I should reward "amateurish" books by a sideline author is ridiculous.
 

I am sorry to say this but this is one the most ridiculous posts I have ever read. Thankfully the majority of people would rather make purchases based on whether a product is what we want, meets our standard of quality, and our acceptable price point.

eyebeams said:
Phil Reed has numerous professional credits and is (from what I've come to understand) acting on a business plan designed to financially support him and his. I know that this is not a hobby or a vanity thing for him. I know that and creative talent is being paid well and works under fair conditions. In short, I know that there's a set of standards that the very nature of his business mandates.

Enron had a business plan. Did that mean I should trust Mr. Lay? Of course not. You also have no idea of whether a company pays its staff well or not based on the things you have mentioned.

eyebeams said:
2) Mediocre quality products created by people who are not taking any real financial risks and who do not rely on them as a source of income, competing with products that are at least as good being produced by folks who *do* have something to risk and *are* trying to put food on the table.

Mediocre products are made just as often, if not more often by folks that have something to risk and are trying to put food on the table. Talent and inspiration are not mandated because someone really wants to make money. Take a look at the best artist today. Many can not make enough to live. Others that have less talent and only do simple artwork that copy others actually make money. Your point just has no rational basis.

eyebeams said:
The SF, fantasy and horror markets have the kind of standards I'm talking about, and it doesn't really keep anybody new down.

This is absolutely untrue. I am a published author and I can tell you that the big companies do not like to take chances on new authors. Any suggestion to the contrary is just not based on the facts. If it wasn’t for the smaller companies that give the new authors a chance the world would be a poor place. RPG Now provides those newer people a chance that you want to deny. They also provide a rating system and sometimes demos that can allow the consumer to see if the product is what they are looking for. Your supposed professionals at DRPG do not do as good a job at informing the consumer about the product they are purchasing. I have made only one purchase from the site and thought the quality of the product that I received was very poor. So much for your argument about standards.
 

Wow.

You might want to actually...I dunno...READ what the person you're railing against has actually SAID in the thread, because otherwise you end up looking really, really foolish.
 

GMSkarka said:
Wow.

You might want to actually...I dunno...READ what the person you're railing against has actually SAID in the thread, because otherwise you end up looking really, really foolish.

I actually read what the person said so I don't look as foolish as you do when you keep sticking up for them. Maybe if you had read what the person actually said you would not be in the minority that supports them. Since many people have come to the same conclusion that I have, maybe I read it the same way that most people did.

BTW, I qouted what was said, I didn't misquote or make anything up. If you think I am wrong feel free to say so and support it. If you think what I said was ridicoulus, then say why you think so.
 
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I'm sorry. I will not get into a back-and-forth with you over this.

Go back and read the thread. He has already stated that his positions have been misinterpreted, and he has explained them. To continue to harp upon those points based on the misinterpretation is either a case of ignorance, or purposeful pot-stirring, neither of which I have any time for.
 

GMSkarka said:
I'm sorry. I will not get into a back-and-forth with you over this.

Go back and read the thread. He has already stated that his positions have been misinterpreted, and he has explained them. To continue to harp upon those points based on the misinterpretation is either a case of ignorance, or purposeful pot-stirring, neither of which I have any time for.

I didn't continue to harp on it. I made one post on the subject. You have made several, of which you fall far from the majority opinion. If anyone is showing a case for ignorence or purposeful pot-stiring, it would have to be you. I will agree that I don't care to discuss the matter with you any further.

BTW, I made the post as I was reading the post for the first time and had not read everyone else's responses or his attempts at an explanation.
 
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ronpurvis said:
I made the post as I was reading the post for the first time and had not read everyone else's responses or his attempts at an explanation.
I suspect that was his point:
GMSkarka said:
You might want to actually...I dunno...READ what the person you're railing against has actually SAID in the thread
So you aren't that far apart on this.

Be that as it may... Please play nice, everybody.

If someone has questions or comments, feel free to e-mail me.
 
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ronpurvis said:
I didn't continue to harp on it. I made one post on the subject. You have made several, of which you fall far from the majority opinion. If anyone is showing a case for ignorence or purposeful pot-stiring, it would have to be you. I will agree that I don't care to discuss the matter with you any further.

BTW, I made the post as I was reading the post for the first time and had not read everyone else's responses or his attempts at an explanation.

Please note that what you are calling minority/majority is nothing more than the vocal minority/majority. I disagree on some points, agree on others. Until I decide to post, if I choose to do so, you have no idea which portion of which camp I fall into. But heck, I am breaking my silence right now, I might as well attempt to add to the conversation.

I have yet to see a reasonable qualifier of what determines Professional from Amateur. The problem is that these distinctions mean completely different things to different industries/professions.

In computers and networks, I do a pretty decent job. I manage Unix based systems, I manage Windows based systems, I manage routers & firewalls, yet I don't have a degree or even any certifications. This makes it more difficult for me to job hunt, but I make a pretty decent living at what I do. Am I professional or amateur? Depending on whom you ask, I am both.

I used to be a distance runner. In High School, I had a chance to speak with Ibrahim Hussein shortly after he won the New York Marathon (1987). He was planning on competing in the Olympics and one of us brought up the fact that only amateur runners could compete in the Olympics. He explained that even though he won quite a bit of money winning big events, he was still an amateur because it all went into a trust fund. He could withdraw enough to cover reasonable living expenses. At the time I spoke with him, reasonable living expenses covered the apartment he lived in, utilities, food, and travel expenses to train & compete. I don't think he even had a car at the time. He was professional enouigh to win races and make enough money to live off of, as well as sock a bunch away into a trust fund for after he went "professional". But he was amateur enough to qualify for the Olympic requirements of being a non-professional.

There are people in community symphonies/orchestras that are professional musicians, yet they don't earn enough to cover all of their living expenses and have other part time jobs. They may spend 40+ hours playing music, but they have to wait tables on the side. Some do well enough at posh restaurants that they would make more money if they quit being a professional musician and went into full-time food services. Are they professional or amateur?

The problem I see with the distinction between professional and amateur is the definition is, effectively, meaningless. Where is the bar for "professional"? More importantly, does it matter? It might matter to you, and certainly it seems to matter to many of you, but it doesn't matter much to me.

Let me put it this way. I don't buy Ronin Arts PDFs because I know Phil does them as his method of paying the bills. I buy them because they are good and fit my needs. Truth is, there are many Ronin Arts PDFs that don't fit my needs and I don't buy them. I like Phil. I encourage others to buy his stuff when they ask me. But I buy based on the value I perceive of the PDF.

I admit that I am always happy to find Ronin Arts PDFs that I want to buy because I know that is benefitting Phil. I also admit that my thinking is influenced slightly by knowing that Phil relies on PDFs and gaming 'gigs' to support himself, but it is difficult to quantify how my thinking is influenced. I think it is along the lines of looking a little harder at Ronin Arts material because I know he has a vested interest in putting together quality ideas & material. But the fact stands that there are competing products that have driven Ronin Arts material further down on my wish list because they fill my needs right now. I couldn't tell you if those products were done by a "professional" or an "amateur". But I could tell you whether they were well done or not and whether I would buy from that person again.

And really, that is all that matters to me. Good products get my money. Good products by good people probably get more of my money. I feel good buying a Ronin Arts PDF because I know I can email or post to Phil Reed and I will get a response. He will take my feedback seriously, he will maintain himself in a courteous manner (some might even say Professional) and if I have a question, he will try to answer it. I have never met Phil, yet I know these things about him. I think he would do all of this regardless of whether Ronin Arts was a sideline hobby or his sole income. So if ?I had to define professional, I would do so based on behavior, not how much income is derived from published materials.

But really, I don't think anybody else in this thread feels that much differently. So I haven't really added anything new to the conversation. ;)
 

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