RPGNow and the competition . . .

[BSF]

The only reason a PDF consumer could be ignorant about a pdf's "quality" is because they want to be.

I have to agree with John on this. PJ-Mason, you seem to be saying that PDF buyers are more likely to know what they are buying simply because they are buying PDFs. Conceptually I would like to agree with you, but I am not sure there is much evidence to support this. Even with the smiley added, your assertion that a consumer is only willfully ignorant of a product's "quality" is incorrect.

PDFs are numerous, but solid reviews on PDFs are not.
RPGNow does have customer comments, but how many customer comments does any given product actually have? For that matter, how many comments say anything useful to a potential buyer?

Why wouldn't a potential buyer look at a listing of products and say "Oh look, there are a bunch of splatbooks on the flumph. Which one should I get? This one has a pretty cover and the company has done several splatbooks so they must be one of the best to get."

I will admit that it _seems_ unlikely that most RPGNow customers arrive there straight from a google search, but it is possible. I believe that possibility will only grow with time as well. As an example, do a search for dnd, winter, wolves and you will find a link to RPGNow before you come across EN World or RPG.net. Now I have no idea what the quality is of Monggose's Slayer's Guide to Winter Wolves is because I have never looked at it. But it is a good example of a PDF that comes from a publisher that also does print products.

There is nothing to suggest to me that a gamer wouldn't hit the Mongoose site, see a cheap Slayer's Guide that is available right now, and buy the PDF without any idea if it is a well-done product. Nor do I see anything that would suggest a gamer wouldn't want to use Winter Wolves in his game, do a google search and find the RPGNow listing, then buy the product without any further research.

Once on RPGNow, he might notice the five comments on the PDF. But if he then decided to look at the Complete Slayer's Guide to Centaurs, he would be out of luck. There are no comments for that product.

He arrived via google searches and is now looking at a product with no comments that he is unfamiliar with. In this case, how would he find out more information about the PDF? How would he educate himself further? More importantly, why would he?

That being said, I do not think that a "professional", "semi-professional", "amateur" rating system would be at all useful. I listed my reasons in my previous post. It is subjective and should be rated on a product basis.

As with any market, there will be some consumers that educate themselves. There will be consumers that have no idea how to begin educating themselves. There will be consumers that have no interest in educating themselves. As always, buyer beware.

I believe the issue that many publishers face is feeling like their products are being lumped in with "garbage" produced by others with less passion and concern for the customer. The PDF market is a new market that is growing. First impressions are important and if a new customer buys a bad PDF, that customer may label the entire PDF industry as "amateurish" or "rubbish". I can see the concern and I appreciate it. But I haven't seen any solid proposals that raise the bar of quality without inadvertent side-effects.

 

[ronpurvis]

PDFs are numerous, but solid reviews on PDFs are not.
RPGNow does have customer comments, but how many customer comments does any given product actually have? For that matter, how many comments say anything useful to a potential buyer?

To me some reviews from actual consumers is better than none. Many if not most of the comments that I have read at RPGNow have been useful to me. Maybe it is just lucky but they have helped me make decisions. However what has been more helpful is the ability to do a google search for other reviews and comments while I am about to make a purchase. That is something that the consumer at a store can't do as readily when they see a new product. That helps to give me the feeling that the PDF consumer should be more educated about a product that they are purchasing.

I will admit that it _seems_ unlikely that most RPGNow customers arrive there straight from a google search, but it is possible. I believe that possibility will only grow with time as well. As an example, do a search for dnd, winter, wolves and you will find a link to RPGNow before you come across EN World or RPG.net. Now I have no idea what the quality is of Monggose's Slayer's Guide to Winter Wolves is because I have never looked at it. But it is a good example of a PDF that comes from a publisher that also does print products.

I actually found RPGNow off of google when I was looking to purchase and download adventures. I found DTRPG the same way. I did know before hand that there were adventures available to purchase and download because of talk at the local store.

Once on RPGNow, he might notice the five comments on the PDF. But if he then decided to look at the Complete Slayer's Guide to Centaurs, he would be out of luck. There are no comments for that product.

As I mentioned above, I don't just read the comments on RPGNow when I amlooking for something. I also do a google for other reviews and comments. That way I can educate myself more on the product before I spend my money.

He arrived via google searches and is now looking at a product with no comments that he is unfamiliar with. In this case, how would he find out more information about the PDF? How would he educate himself further? More importantly, why would he?

Again do a google search. He is already using the internet at the time. Anyone that has a few minutes and wants to make sure of the product before they spend money will do this.

As with any market, there will be some consumers that educate themselves. There will be consumers that have no idea how to begin educating themselves. There will be consumers that have no interest in educating themselves. As always, buyer beware.

You are right. There are some people that will take the time to learn about a product. Others won't. I like to learn enough to be sure that I will enjoy the product before I spend my little bit of money. Since I am not able to work a regular job anymore, it is important for me to stretch what money I do have. Not everyone may feel that way.

 

[johnsemlak]

Again do a google search. He is already using the internet at the time. Anyone that has a few minutes and wants to make sure of the product before they spend money will do this.

Just to clarify, I think the question being debated here is whether RPG PDF consumers are more 'educated' about the product they buy than other market segments, such as buyers of RPG print products.

And to clarify, my position is--this may be true, but I see no hard evidence to support this.

Specifially to the quote above, if we are comparing visiters to an LGS, then definitely viewers have less opportunity to find reviews at the point of purchase. However, with consumers who buy print products online, they have equal opportunity. Speaking personally, I always do more research before buying a $30 print product than I do when considering a $5 PDF.

And also, the ability to search for reviews needs to be weighed against an LGS goer who has the opportunity to browse the product in full.

Finally, again, while internet buyers have the opportunity to educate themselves about a product before buying it, I would hesitate to assume that they do such things as searching for reviews or related threads without any hard evidence. It's dangerous to make assumptions about how others think.

 

[GMSkarka]

...and just to add, as a person who sells product via RPGNow, as well as a person who does staff work *for* RPGNow:

The data indicates that about half of the customers on RPGNow browse, and the other half go directly to the product page of their purchase--which indicates that they're following links provided by the publishers.

 

[PJ-Mason]

Those 'hundreds of views' you're talking about could be all by the same person. More seriously, I would certainly believe that in such threads many of the views are actually one person viewing multiple times.

I find that a stretch of plausibility. I don't think that threads with up to several thousand views are the same handful of people looking at the thread hundreds of times over.

In any case, I would certainly not overestimate how educating these threads are. A thread with posts like 'X-product rocks!' or 'Y-products sucks!' doesn't tell me all that much. I certainly find the info on RPG products I read at EN World to be very useful, but I've also learned you have to be very discriminate and skeptical about what you read.

Hey, i didn't say it was a quality education!
But whether or not it is or isn't, it does mean the viewer is more informed about the product (as well as the industry to some small extent).

The bottom line is, I still don't see how you know a person who has bought your product has become more 'educated' before purchasing the product. It seems perfectly possibly that many customers simply see a very short blurb about the product at the EN World news site, click to RPG Now, and purchase with a few more clicks. THe nature of the internet makes quick impulse buying quite easy (I sure know ).

The nature of the internet makes for ease of information gathering as much as it makes for impulse buying. One or two clicks gets all the information you could want about a particular product.
Even if the traffic from EnWorld (again according to actual numbers, thats where the bulk of PDF customers come from) is from the front page, so are review links on the front page, in the Today's Reviews. The front page does a pretty good job of educating as well. Today we found out all about what Erik Mona is going to Dragon Mag and the settings its going to promote.
By this reasoning, there is far more evidence to suggest that Rpgnow's customers are more educated about the pdf's and pdf industry in general. If 77% of rpgnow's business is coming from D20/Ogl products, of which the largest part is coming from Enworld, then they at least have to get through the front page of Enworld, which by its very nature has educational value. LGSs don't have a list of D&D/D20 community news page on the door as you walk through, or at least the ones around here don't. Now that i think about it, that would be a great suggestion the next time i go to one of my LGS...whenever that happens again.

How is that buyer any more educated about the product they're buying than a non internet using LGS goer who spends 10 minutes browsing the product before deciding to buy it? Remember, you cannot browse a PDF product in full before purchasing it.

Well browsing through a book at the store will let you know if you like the art and whether it has the subjects you are looking for.
With 10 minutes of online product reviewing/searching you can not only the basics, but you can find all the different little things that may or may not be poor or broken (or what have you) with the book that browsing through it at the store would not have shown you.
Also, online you can find any product that exists quite easily, even if you only are googling or looking at the front page of Rpgnow. If you go into the LGS, you see only what is there. Online you can search for superhero games and find hundreds of possibilities, at the store you see the handful of superhero related product that is on the shelf. So that onliner buys whatever he wants and even if he didn't research all those links, he is a lot more educated on the subject than that LGS-er that either buys from those few choices or goes home.

 

[PJ-Mason]

Fox PDFs are numerous, but solid reviews on PDFs are not.RPGNow does have customer comments, but how many customer comments does any given product actually have? For that matter, how many comments say anything useful to a potential buyer?

Well, again, it can be debated on how useful they are. But you learn things you didn't know after reading them, then nothing at all. So my belief that someone who doesn't read comments or click on review links that are provided by some, don't WANT to be educated. Sure some products at RPGNow don't have comments. But there 0 comments at a LGS. Unless the proprietor steps up or you're lucky enough to have someone standing their that has the book. I don't like those odds if i'm a LGS-er.

I will admit that it _seems_ unlikely that most RPGNow customers arrive there straight from a google search, but it is possible.

Once again, not according to the numbers released by RPGNow and its vendors. ENworld routinely garned the lion's share with Rpgnet usually second. All other sources (search enigne, "other", company website, etc)added together didn't match the percentage that Enworld (and rpgnet) garnered. Or even got close.

 

[PJ-Mason]

That's not how I read it---I thought you were stating that PDF consumers were as a whole more educated.

Well it seems that at least one or two others didn't think it was obvious either. So i apologize for not being clearer.

Take it easy. I didn't make any crack about NASCAR fans. I pulled them as a random example--I could've just as easily gone with "football fans". I was alluding to the long-standing and erroneous belief among gamers that gamers, as a whole, are more educated by virtue of their hobby. So I picked another hobby as a contrast, that's all.

Put the knives away, OK? It's Christmas.

What??!! How dare you assume i venerate Christmas!! *gets out the chainsaw*

 

[FoolishFrost]

What??!! How dare you assume i venerate Christmas!! *gets out the chainsaw*

(snicker-choke)

 

[philreed]

Once again, not according to the numbers released by RPGNow and its vendors. ENworld routinely garned the lion's share with Rpgnet usually second. All other sources (search enigne, "other", company website, etc)added together didn't match the percentage that Enworld (and rpgnet) garnered. Or even got close.

Actually, this isn't quite accurate. Atlas Games' free Ars Magica -- and the Atlas Games site -- account for a fairly large percentage that is close to comparable with ENWorld.

 

[GMSkarka]

Once again, not according to the numbers released by RPGNow and its vendors. ENworld routinely garned the lion's share with Rpgnet usually second. All other sources (search enigne, "other", company website, etc)added together didn't match the percentage that Enworld (and rpgnet) garnered. Or even got close.

Not according to data I'm looking at....according to the 2004 sales data released by James on the private epublishers forum at RPGHost, ENWorld is listed as the fifth "customer source" (visits)....and the second "sales source." (actual sales), behind "Unknown" by a HUGE margin (roughly 12 to 1). The third and fourth sales sources, added together, approximately match ENworld, and there are dozens of additional sources listed after that.