RPGNow and the competition . . .

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eyebeams said:
There's another issue at work here: Namely, that RPGs need better-defined semipro and amatuer markets.

I completely disagree with you on this point. Its an entirely subjective labeling process you proscribe. Not only is it a bad idea and a form of elitism that is unnappetizing to so many, but i just don't see as how its feasible.

First of all, PDF consumers are one of the most, if not the best, educated consumer groups. These are the people who know about what they are buying. They can't helping buying a PDF at RPGNow without seeing a review section on the same page as the "Buy it Now" button. Many of them have Demos as well. Your method of arbitrarily (which it will ever only be considering that it relies opinion as anything else) labeling works as professional, semi-pro, and amateur isn't going to do a better job. Its only going to cause bad feelings and in some cases, possible legal issues.

Secondly, I certaintly don't see how any PDF customers could even get to sites like RPGNow without arriving there via sites like ENWorld, which offers more opinions and reviews on products (and game companies themselves) than you can shake a stick at. Beyond that, you could create a post (or poll) on sites like this one asking about a product or company and within minutes to hours, get more responses than you would ever need. The only reason a PDF consumer could be ignorant about a pdf's "quality" is because they want to be. :)

Print customers are another beast entirely. I don't see how you think you can reach them. Unless you plan on creating some sort of review magazine, which is already being done to however much success (i don't keep track honestly, don't need it). A label system for print books where the books themselves would be labled, would need to be an industry-wide movement. I don't see any company agreeing to be labeled amatuer. If you don't already know that putting a label of "semi pro" or "amatuer" will do damage to a book's sales...i don't think i could convince you regardless of what i say.

eyebeams said:
DTRPG is there to get at a specific segment. The reason they use the annoying "professional" moniker is because they want some kind of indicator that their focus is on high quality professional offerings. The reason they have DRM (which I'm not too fond of) is probably to attract clients who would normally never sell their material in electronic form.

I totally agree with you here. I do believe that this is their goal with DTRPG. I personally detest DTRPG and not so much because of its irratating tech requirements (which really does only foul up a small part of the consumer base), but because of the precedent it sets. DRM assumes the user is a thief. That point can be spun ALL they like and its not going away. Because its true. If DRM gets real popular, i can only imagine what a second generation DRM set up will be like. I don't jump through hoops to spend my money, those wanting my dollars do the jumping. This DRM nonsense is NOT worth getting those companies afraid of their own shadow into the PDF mix. There is already plenty of competiton for my PDF dollar. I'm not going to beg them for the privilege of giving them my money.

eyebeams said:
RPGNow has a large a thriving group of what could only be called semiprofessional and amatuer offerings. This isn't to say that they don't also have professionally produced material as well. The issue that comes up, though, is that there's no real way to tell hobbyist merchants apart from folks like Phil Reed, and sometimes, to be brutally frank, a lot of the former stuff is of wildly variable quality. Some of is is excellent. Some of it really, reallly isn't.

As is a lot of WOTC, White Wolf's, and every other company's books. Everyone has put out at least one or more dogs in their time. Some of the "professionals" put out consistently poor books (or at least did in the beginning of their company's history) if you ask some people. Again, this notion of quantifying what is professional is just too subjective. Junk is junk. Pretty junk...is still just junk.

eyebeams said:
I think the fact that they approached Phil Reed is a good sign that they want the split to be between more than print and .pdf producers, but there really ought to be a split and consumers ought to have a good grasp of the differences. Why?

1) You should know the difference between pro and nonpro work so that you can make a choice knowing the production values have a chance of beeing significantly different for nonpro work.

2) You should be able to distinguish nonpro work for innovation and ideas that don't necessarily fly past the vetting process elsewhere.

Well. I think you assume way too much ignorance on the part of us customers. We know a good book when we see one, thank you. You absolutely DO NOT need to be an industry professional, or be hand held by them, to know a good book when you see one.
As i mentioned above, no PDF consumer goes into a product igorant of its contents or general quality unless they WANT to. There are simply to many avenues that exist for them to research anything they are interested in.
As for print books. I've never gone into a store and not been able to look through a book and see what its like. I've had a couple places try to charge me for unwrapping a book in my travels (btw, those stores didn't get any business out of me), but i've never been unable to look through the books on the shelf. No label system can ever beat that. Ever.

eyebeams said:
3) Distributors should be able to tell them apart so that they can assess whether or not to invest in professional-quality .pdf producers without getting stung. I can only imagine the hideous amount of work involved sifting through stuff to find what's worth supporting

Well RPGNow has a complaint system for those products that slip by them that are truly awful. Personally, i don't see the need. If a product has been up a while and has no sales, thats an indicator. Though thats not even fool-proof. The item may not be marketed well or got lost in the shuffle of new products. Unless bandwidth (or whatever term i should have used) is a major issue for places like RPGNow, i say leave the stuff alone, it'll sort itself out. Censorship is almost always a bad idea. Darn Eric's Grandmother!!! ;)

eyebeams said:
4) Writers should have a better idea of who's going to pay them and pay them well. I can attest to this personally, since I've been stung once by a company who ended up being far less professional than they purported to be.

This is a bad deal all around. I do feel your pain. I've gotten stiffed once or twice in my life by an employer. I do know that places like these boards are a great resource for letting others know about companies who don't pay. One company got to exonerate themselves once on these boards for false accusations as well. I don't think that a labeling system is appropriate for problems like this though.

eyebeams said:
5) It would discourage products that neither make money nor offer anything distinct to the hobby.

How is that your problem? If someone is making products that don't sell, its their choice. If they are not selling, then they certaintly aren't taking any business away from you. I don't see why you would care otherwise. Unless its out of some elitist attitude. Which i assume isn't the case here.
As to whether a book or company brings anything distinct to the hobby...that again is highly subjective criteria and is best left alone to the individual customer. There is no one in this industry i would be willing to cede my decision making to and having some sort of label system that prepackages books or companies with labels like "Semi-Pro", "Amateur", or "Professional" does just that.

eyebeams said:
It seems like the percentage increase isn't a very good idea, though (shouldn't quality be its own draw, here?), and I would prefer it if DRM was not a mandatory part of doing business with DTRPG.

That question that was asked about their higher rates was a great one. Did it ever get answered?
I don't buy pdfs or print books from any company that does business with those DTRPG folks and their DRM. If i was in the business, i wouldn't go near them with a 10' pole. Nothing personal, i just made my choice.
 

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BardStephenFox said:
Let me put it this way. I don't buy Ronin Arts PDFs because I know Phil does them as his method of paying the bills. I buy them because they are good and fit my needs. Truth is, there are many Ronin Arts PDFs that don't fit my needs and I don't buy them. I like Phil. I encourage others to buy his stuff when they ask me. But I buy based on the value I perceive of the PDF.

And it's my job to make certain that I produce good PDFs that fit your needs. After all, if someone doesn't play D20 Future how can I expect them to just buy everything I produce for D20 Future.

The most important thing, to me, is to balance the creation of material I want with the creation of material that people want for their games. I don't write PDFs with the intention of entertaining people. I write PDFs with the intention that they'll be used in a game session. After all, what's the fun of game materials that are never used in a game?

And thank you for the kind words. I hope that I can continue to provide you with material that you need and enjoy. This is the best job I could have ever asked for.
 

BardStephenFox said:
Please note that what you are calling minority/majority is nothing more than the vocal minority/majority. I disagree on some points, agree on others. Until I decide to post, if I choose to do so, you have no idea which portion of which camp I fall into. But heck, I am breaking my silence right now, I might as well attempt to add to the conversation.

You are right in that what I called the minority/majority was based on those who had spoken up. However at another point in the first post, the majority I spoke of was based on the majority of consumers. This information was from a course I took on salesmanship when I went back to college years ago to get an additional degree in Business Administration. I will of course admit that this my recollection and I no longer have the book, but I remember the course said that most consumers buy on perceived value. Tome that would indicate that the majority of consumers look for the perceived value to them and not whether the product was made by a person who has met Eyebeams perceived standards of business.

BardStephenFox said:
In computers and networks, I do a pretty decent job. I manage Unix based systems, I manage Windows based systems, I manage routers & firewalls, yet I don't have a degree or even any certifications. This makes it more difficult for me to job hunt, but I make a pretty decent living at what I do. Am I professional or amateur? Depending on whom you ask, I am both.

Before I retired due to medical problems, I used to work in MIS: specifically managing the Help Desk for large goverment and corporate organizations. I understand entirely that many people with certifications could not do the job. We used to call them paper CNEs since Novell was the king of PC based networks at the time. On the other hand many of our best people had no certifications or even degrees. My point is that you can't judge the quality of work by a peice of paper. You judge it by the work.

BardStephenFox said:
The problem I see with the distinction between professional and amateur is the definition is, effectively, meaningless. Where is the bar for "professional"? More importantly, does it matter? It might matter to you, and certainly it seems to matter to many of you, but it doesn't matter much to me.

Let me put it this way. I don't buy Ronin Arts PDFs because I know Phil does them as his method of paying the bills. I buy them because they are good and fit my needs. Truth is, there are many Ronin Arts PDFs that don't fit my needs and I don't buy them. I like Phil. I encourage others to buy his stuff when they ask me. But I buy based on the value I perceive of the PDF.

This was my point exactly. We buy based on perceived value to us, not whether the person does it full time or not.
 

PJ Mason said:
First of all, PDF consumers are one of the most, if not the best, educated consumer groups. These are the people who know about what they are buying. They can't helping buying a PDF at RPGNow without seeing a review section on the same page as the "Buy it Now" button.
I see this idea a lot and I wonder, 'how exactly do you know this?'

It certainly may be true, and it seems logical, but it seems to me that a lot of people who think this are just speculating. It seems to me that the main criteria to be an PDF buyer is to be someone with internet access, and as you say probably someone who uses the internet for RPGing and thus gets to sites like EN World and RPGNow. But I wouldn't assume those people are any more RPG-educated than people who rarely use the internet.

The internet is by its very nature a digital marketplace in many ways, and making purchases is extremely easy (for some people). Is it not possible that PDF buyers (or potential PDF buyers) are basically the same sort of casual shoppers that browse at places like Barnes and Nobles, and simply a much smaller segment of the population?
 
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johnsemlak said:
I see this idea a lot and I wonder, 'how exactly do you know this?'

He doesn't. He's just speculating. There is no market data that indicates that the PDF consumer group are any better educated that any other segment of the gaming market...or any data that indicates that the overall gaming consumer group are better educated than your average NASCAR fan.
 

GMSkarka said:
He doesn't. He's just speculating. There is no market data that indicates that the PDF consumer group are any better educated that any other segment of the gaming market...or any data that indicates that the overall gaming consumer group are better educated than your average NASCAR fan.

I think that many people assume this because the people who purchase PDFs are somewhat to very computer literate. This would possibly indicate a little more education than people who are not computer literate. The problem is that even though they may be more computer literate than the non computer user, it doesn't mean they are more knowledgable about other subjects.
 

GMSkarka said:
He doesn't. He's just speculating. There is no market data that indicates that the PDF consumer group are any better educated that any other segment of the gaming market...or any data that indicates that the overall gaming consumer group are better educated than your average NASCAR fan.

Well i thought it very obvious that i meant educated about the pdf products if not the pdf industry itself. I wasn't referring to the specific level of education (higher or otherwise) that any one particular customer may or may not have. Or whether or not Nascar fans are educated. Although that crack about nascar fans (of which i am one) and the other inconsiderate statements you've made in this thread alone, pretty much salt away my opinion of you. Attitude, manners, and personality go a long way in many customers book's when they think about buying from a store or company. It wouldn't kill you to remember that once in a while.
 

johnsemlak said:
I see this idea a lot and I wonder, 'how exactly do you know this?'

It certainly may be true, and it seems logical, but it seems to me that a lot of people who think this are just speculating. It seems to me that the main criteria to be an PDF buyer is to be someone with internet access, and as you say probably someone who uses the internet for RPGing and thus gets to sites like EN World and RPGNow. But I wouldn't assume those people are any more RPG-educated than people who rarely use the internet.

The internet is by its very nature a digital marketplace in many ways, and making purchases is extremely easy (for some people). Is it not possible that PDF buyers (or potential PDF buyers) are basically the same sort of casual shoppers that browse at places like Barnes and Nobles, and simply a much smaller segment of the population?

There IS market evidence to support my theory. Based off of information gathered and released by RPGnow and their affiliate vendors i can track where the vast majority of their sales come from, specifically for the D20 market. Almost to a product, at least 50% (up to a much larger portion) of sales come directly from ENWorld Links. Other similiar sites (rpgnet for example) gobble up another chunk of the traffic sources. Then there is a tiny smattering of the percentage that go to the actual company websites, etc. As well the ever present "Other" that you get from those people using stealth modems. :)

So what i can gather from that information is that the vast majority of RPGNow customers come from RPG sites (with the lionshare usually going to ENWorld). By the nature of these sites, their members and visitors ARE far more educated about the gaming industry than your average non-internet, LGS goer, who quite possibly don't even know that there is a pdf market and customer base, much less what is out there to choose from. When you walk into the store, you MIGHT get lucky and there could a customer who has the book you're looking for (or just pulled off the shelf) and he/she might be able educate on the book. Or the gamestore employees MAY know about the product they are selling (not in any of the stores in my area mind you, but its possible). By the same token, ask one question about a product on these boards here or over at rpgnet, and you'll get a ton of answers. Any for every reply, there is usually 10 or more "post has been viewed" count. Which means that only if 10-50 people reply, usually hundreds have looked it over and become more educated about the industry. Those guys back at the store playing Magic the gathering or Warhammer probably wheren't even listening to what that one guy said about the Planar Handbook. :D

Edited: Had to fix a couple words. You know we Nascar hicks can't spell!
 
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PJ-Mason said:
Well i thought it very obvious that i meant educated about the pdf products if not the pdf industry itself.

That's not how I read it---I thought you were stating that PDF consumers were as a whole more educated.

PJ-Mason said:
Although that crack about nascar fans (of which i am one) and the other inconsiderate statements you've made in this thread alone, pretty much salt away my opinion of you. Attitude, manners, and personality go a long way in many customers book's when they think about buying from a store or company. It wouldn't kill you to remember that once in a while.

Take it easy. I didn't make any crack about NASCAR fans. I pulled them as a random example--I could've just as easily gone with "football fans". I was alluding to the long-standing and erroneous belief among gamers that gamers, as a whole, are more educated by virtue of their hobby. So I picked another hobby as a contrast, that's all.

Put the knives away, OK? It's Christmas.
 

PJ-Mason said:
There IS market evidence to support my theory. Based off of information gathered and released by RPGnow and their affiliate vendors i can track where the vast majority of their sales come from, specifically for the D20 market. Almost to a product, at least 50% (up to a much larger portion) of sales come directly from ENWorld Links. Other similiar sites (rpgnet for example) gobble up another chunk of the traffic sources.

So what i can gather from that information is that the vast majority of RPGNow customers come from RPG sites (with the lionshare usually going to ENWorld). By the nature of these sites, their members and visitors ARE far more educated about the gaming industry than your average non-internet, LGS goer, who quite possibly don't even know that there is a pdf market and customer base, much less what is out there to choose from. When you walk into the store, you MIGHT get lucky and there could a customer who has the book you're looking for (or just pulled off the shelf) and he/she might be able educate on the book. Or the gamestore employees MAY know about the product they are selling (not in any of the stores in my area mind you, but its possible).

Edited: Had to fix a couple words. You know we Nascar hicks can't spell!

Again, I have to ask, how do you know customers who come to you via EN World are more educated about the products that buy than any other market segment that buys RPGs.

I'm not sure if you can keep track of exactly which EN world links people use to view your products. I know the (large) majority of viewers of EN World only view the news site and never visit the forums.

Also, a lot of (most probably) EN World users (and users of Wizards.com and other sites) never buy PDFs

By the same token, ask one question about a product on these boards here or over at rpgnet, and you'll get a ton of answers. Any for every reply, there is usually 10 or more "post has been viewed" count. Which means that only if 10-50 people reply, usually hundreds have looked it over and become more educated about the industry.

Those 'hundreds of views' you're talking about could be all by the same person. More seriously, I would certainly believe that in such threads many of the views are actually one person viewing multiple times.

In any case, I would certainly not overestimate how educating these threads are. A thread with posts like 'X-product rocks!' or 'Y-products sucks!' doesn't tell me all that much. I certainly find the info on RPG products I read at EN World to be very useful, but I've also learned you have to be very discriminate and skeptical about what you read.

The bottom line is, I still don't see how you know a person who has bought your product has become more 'educated' before purchasing the product. It seems perfectly possibly that many customers simply see a very short blurb about the product at the EN World news site, click to RPG Now, and purchase with a few more clicks. THe nature of the internet makes quick impulse buying quite easy (I sure know :)).

How is that buyer any more educated about the product they're buying than a non internet using LGS goer who spends 10 minutes browsing the product before deciding to buy it? Remember, you cannot browse a PDF product in full before purchasing it.
 

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