Rule Clarifications

[Hypersmurf]

Thanks for the speedy responses! I was a bit surprised by the Heal check, but the more I think about it, the less it bothers me.

DracoSuave's post confuses me a bit, lets use the spined devil's rain of spines ability as an example to see if I got this right

It has both the fire and poison keywords, and it has a primary and secondary attack. The first is stated as fire damage, and if it hits the secondary attack goes ahead

1) I assume that if the first hit is made against a PC with fire resistance that the damage is resolved and the secondary attack is made. What if the PC is immune to fire? Would the second attack (with the poison ongoing and unspecified slow) be allowed?

2) In the secondary attack, is the slow ability a poison attack by default since it is grouped with the ongoing poison damage? If the PC is immune to poison, would it still be slowed? If this is not the case, how is it resolved?

Thanks in advance!

With immunities, it's very simple. Rain of Spines has the Fire keyword, so it is a Fire attack. Rain of Spines has the Poison keyword, so it is a Poison attack.

A creature with Poison immunity never takes poison damage, and suffers no ill effects from Rain of Spines. A creature with Fire immunity never takes fire damage, and suffers no ill effects from Rain of Spines. The ill effects from Rain of Spines are damage, fire damage, a secondary attack, poison damage, and slow; anyone immune to fire or to poison suffers none of those things.

Resistance, on the other hand, is very specific - it reduces damage of the stated type, and that's all it does. So a creature with Fire Resistance 5 will take 5 off the 1d6 Fire damage, but even if that reduces the fire damage to 0, they'll still take the non-fire damage and be subject to the secondary attack, the poison damage, and the slow effect.

-Hyp.

 

[crantastic]

immunity and keywords

i beg to differ on immunities. from pg 55 of the PHB, first sentence of the fourth paragraph under keywords: "Resistance or immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power's other effects." The rest of the paragraph is replaced by the official WotC PHB errata as follows:

Also, resistance doesn’t reduce damage unless the target has resistance to each type of damage from the attack, and then only the weakest of the resistances applies. For example, a character who has resist 10 lightning and resist 5 thunder who takes 15 lightning and thunder damage takes 10 damage because the resistance value to the combined damage types is limited by the lesser of the two resistances.​

Furthermore, you're confusing the Keyword Categories (also pg 55, PHB). "Psychic" is a damage keyword, while "Fear" is an effect keyword. Thus, the answer to question #1 of the OP is: full damage, no effects.

Going back to Prismatic Spray, a creature immune to Poison would not take the poison damage, but would take fire damage and be stunned if the attacks hit.

Same story with Rain of Spines, and all other attacks where the damage type for each hit is clearly defined. The keyword header isn't a one-size fits all, you have to actually read the specifics. The only time you would actually divide the damage evenly is when the damage type in the text is unspecified, in which case you would assume it is comprised of all the damage type keywords.

 

[Gruns]

Nein.

The ill effects from Rain of Spines are damage, fire damage, a secondary attack, poison damage, and slow; anyone immune to fire or to poison suffers none of those things.

Are you saying a creature with Immunity to Poison takes none of the Fire damage from the first part of the attack? I can't see this as anything but wrong. I also wouldn't consider the damage as "ill effects" as damage is specifially mentioned in the Immunity tagline. No reason to say "A creature immune to poison takes no poison or suffers any other ill effect from a poison attack, such as damage." The secondary attack is iffy, but I wouldn't count it as an ill effect, either. It's simply a continuation of the attack. Slow is the only effect that I see, and it would of course be ignored by a creature immune to poison or fire, even though it seems to come from the poison part of the attack.

Later!
Gruns

 

[Hypersmurf]

i beg to differ on immunities.

MM p282:
Immune: The monster has immunity to the stated kind of damage or effect. For example, a monster with "immune to poison" never takes poison damage and can't suffer any other ill effect from a poison attack.

Rain of Spines has the Poison keyword; it is a poison attack. MM p282 says a monster with "immune to poison" can't suffer poison damage or any other ill effect from Rain of Spines.

Furthermore, you're confusing the Keyword Categories (also pg 55, PHB). "Psychic" is a damage keyword, while "Fear" is an effect keyword.

"Acid" is a damage keyword, yet PHB p55 also says "A power that deals acid damage is an acid effect and thus has the acid keyword."

A power with the Psychic keyword is a Psychic effect.

We do, however, have a contradiction between PHB55 ("immunity does not protect from other effects") and MM282 ("immunity can't suffer any other ill effect").

-Hyp.

 

[thewok]

We do, however, have a contradiction between PHB55 ("immunity does not protect from other effects") and MM282 ("immunity can't suffer any other ill effect").

There is no contradiction. Both statements are true.

PHB: "Resistance or Immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power's other effects."

MM: "For example, a monsters with 'Immune poison' never takes poison damage and can't suffer any other ill effect from a poison attack."

People are equating "power" with "attack." In the case of the Spined Devil, it makes two attacks with its Rain of Spines power. The Secondary Attack is dependent on the Primary Attack. Against a target with Fire immunity, neither attack will hit, as the secondary attack is an "ill effect" of the primary attack. Against a target with Poison immunity, the spines would do the fire damage, but the poison would have no effect.

Prismatic Beams is a different beast. It's a power with three separate attacks, none of which rely on another's success. Immunity to one type of damage does not protect from the entire power. Assuming the attack roll is high enough to hit all three defenses, an Immune poison monster would be unaffected by the Fort attack, but would take the fire damage from the Reflex attack and be dazed from the Will attack.

 

[DracoSuave]

There is no contradiction, Hyp.

There are very few powers which have effects other than the keywords.

Terrifying Impact
Fighter Level 9, Martial Power, p 13 is the only one I know of off hand.
Keywords: Invigorating, Martial, Weapon

"Effect: Make a secondary attack, which has the fear keyword."

Here we have one of the only two situations where an individual effect of a power has a keyword the rest do not. So immunity to fear would cancel this entire secondary attack, but as per the rules, the rest of the power (not having the keyword) would go through just fine.


The other instance is bonus typed damage. If you used Burning Blade from the swordmage class to increase your damage by 2 fire damage, then immunity to fire damage would prevent the 2 fire damage, but would ignore the rest of it.

There is no contradiction, Hyp, because there exist cases where -both- rules can apply.

 

[DracoSuave]

Are you saying a creature with Immunity to Poison takes none of the Fire damage from the first part of the attack? I can't see this as anything but wrong. I also wouldn't consider the damage as "ill effects" as damage is specifially mentioned in the Immunity tagline. No reason to say "A creature immune to poison takes no poison or suffers any other ill effect from a poison attack, such as damage." The secondary attack is iffy, but I wouldn't count it as an ill effect, either. It's simply a continuation of the attack. Slow is the only effect that I see, and it would of course be ignored by a creature immune to poison or fire, even though it seems to come from the poison part of the attack.

Later!
Gruns

Damage is, almost by definition, an ill effect by any sense of the term.

 

[thewok]

Terrifying Impact
Fighter Level 9, Martial Power, p 13 is the only one I know of off hand.
Keywords: Invigorating, Martial, Weapon

"Effect: Make a secondary attack, which has the fear keyword."

Here we have one of the only two situations where an individual effect of a power has a keyword the rest do not. So immunity to fear would cancel this entire secondary attack, but as per the rules, the rest of the power (not having the keyword) would go through just fine.

That depends. The secondary attack is not against the target hit in the primary attack. So, say your fighter uses Terrifying Impact against a monster with some lower-level minions that lack the immunity nearby. The Fighter targets the guy with the immunity for the primary attack and hits him. A secondary attack with the fear keywword is then made against all the monsters within 3 squares of that primary target. The primary target is not even a concern at this point. Any secondary targets that are Immune fear would be unaffected by the secondary attack. Without that immunity, though, any target hit successfully is pushed a square. In the case of this power, the primary target is never pushed--only the secondary targets.

 

[crantastic]

let's start by defining "resistance" and "immunity".

Resistance: the ability to withstand a particular type of damage or effect.

Immunity: a resistance so great that the target always ignores damage and effects of this type.

if you combine this definition with pg 55 + errata:

Resistance or immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power's other effects. Also, resistance doesn’t reduce damage unless the target has resistance to each type of damage from the attack, and then only the weakest of the resistances applies. For example, a character who has resist 10 lightning and resist 5 thunder who takes 15 lightning and thunder damage takes 10 damage because the resistance value to the combined damage types is limited by the lesser of the two resistances.

this means an immunity to one, but not to all, will result in full damage being taken. the immunity will allow the target to ignore effects specific to the immunity's type, however.

MM p282:
Immune: The monster has immunity to the stated kind of damage or effect. For example, a monster with "immune to poison" never takes poison damage and can't suffer any other ill effect from a poison attack.

This is true, but a combined damage type will still still cause full damage, although any poison-specific effects will be ignored.

"Acid" is a damage keyword, yet PHB p55 also says "A power that deals acid damage is an acid effect and thus has the acid keyword."

A power with the Psychic keyword is a Psychic effect.

Hmmm, ok, I'll concede that. After some thought, I've reconsidered what the outcome of Dread Word is. The entire point of the attack is that you're planting a horrible thought in the target's mind, which then "reels in terror." While the method of attack is psychic, the nature of the attack is fear. a creature that's immune to fear would suffer neither damage nor ill effects. unless, of course, there is an actual "psychic blast" occurring, where physical damage is done to the target's mind, as well as the psychological damage. someone who has a brain, but has no fear, would be unaffected by the first case but would most certainly suffer having their brain scrambled by the second.

as i haven't had a chance to look at my MM, i'll defer to thewok's ruling on the spined devil, as i don't know what the actual attacks are.

i think each case requires a reasonable interpretation of what the attack is doing. as the PHB errata indicates, at no time does a resistance or immunity to one damage type in a combined damage attack reduce your vulnerability to the the attack, except for sequential hits/effects, where the damage type of each one is different.

let's try out some real-world examples:

I'm a firefighter, clad in a nomex suit, but no breathing apparatus. In game terms, I'm immune to fire, or resistant enough to be considered immune (Resist:2000). If i fight a fire at a chemical plant, i'm immune to the fire, but the superheated, toxic smoke will scour my lungs, leaving me just as dead as the flames would've otherwise. Thus, two different types of damage within the same attack.

i'm a snake handler. sometimes i wear gloves (which grant me an immunity to the snake's fangs), sometimes i don't. a rattlesnake bites me on the hand. if i'm not wearing gloves, i take physical damage from the snake's fangs, and am subject to a secondary attack from the snake's poison. if i've built up an immunity to the snake's venom, i not only don't take tissue damage, but i also don't feel nauseous from it. if i'm wearing gloves, i ignore the primary attack, and therefore the venom attack never occurs, which is dependent upon the initial hit being successful.

the ultimate combined attack: i'm an astronaut on a spacewalk. my suit must grant me resistance/immunity to the overall attack that is space. to survive the attack, i must be able to resist cold, radiation, and pressure. without immunity to one, i'm susceptible to the attack.
​

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is true, but a combined damage type will still still cause full damage, although any poison-specific effects will be ignored.

If we have a power with the Thunder and Lightning keywords, which deals 10 thunder damage and 10 lightning damage, Resist Thunder 5 will reduce it to 5 thunder damage and 10 lightning damage.

If we have a power with the Thunder and Lightning keywords, which deals 10 thunder and lightning damage, Resist Thunder 5 will have no effect.

I have no problem with this.

If we have a power with the Thunder and Lightning keywords, which deals 10 thunder damage and 10 lightning damage, Thunder Immunity per MM282 says that since this is a Thunder attack (it has the Thunder keyword), the creature suffers no thunder damage nor any other ill effect from the power.

10 lightning damage is an other ill effect from the power; MM282 says he doesn't suffer it.

Likewise, if we have a power with the Thunder and Lightning keywords, which deals 10 thunder and lightning damage, Thunder Immunity per MM282 says that since this is a Thunder attack (it has the Thunder keyword), the creature suffers no thunder damage nor any other ill effect from the power.

Even though Resist Thunder gives no benefit vs the 'thunder and lightning' damage, the 'thunder and lightning' damage is an ill effect of the Thunder attack, and MM282 says Thunder Immunity prevents him suffering it.

-Hyp.